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Australian philosopher, literary critic, legal scholar, and professional writer. Based in Newcastle, NSW. Author of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND THE SECULAR STATE (2012), HUMANITY ENHANCED (2014), and THE MYSTERY OF MORAL AUTHORITY (2016).

Monday, June 29, 2009

Has progress been made?

Chris Mooney has now explained his current thinking about the accommodationism debate and the proprieties of writing and publishing over on his blog. I have great difficulty seeing this latest as simply an explanation, rather than a change of mind, but whatever. I do thank him for his trouble. I posted a long response which I thought was measured and civil, but I still see some of Chris's commenters attacking it as though it is extreme. I've also received comments (not on this blog itself) to the effect that my careful post yesterday was some kind of reprehensible "absolutism".

That's part of the problem with this accommodationism debate. If anyone merely wants to engage in civil debate in which they criticise religious doctrines, organisations, and leaders, at least some participants in the debate will characterise them as "strident", absolutists, etc. Not only is Richard Dawkins supposedly strident, etc., now even I am, despite the fact that most of what I write is very mild and heavily qualified. I say "most" because I do, admittedly, think, and say bluntly, that much distinctively religious morality is miserable and irrational. I also think that denunciation, mockery, and satire have their place.

But it should also been kept in mind that I frequently make the point that I have no real problem with genuinely moderate or liberal religious people. Many of those people are my political allies, and I count some of them as friends.

I should add, that I see absolutely no evidence so far that Ken Miller or Francis Collins, for example, is a genuinely moderate or liberal Christian. Maybe they are, but I have no idea why this is so often simply assumed.

Anyway, someone called "Peter" is making the points I want to make over there on Chris Mooney's blog in tandem with Ophelia Benson, so I probably don't need to say any more about Chris's post.

But, on the broader subject of propriety, this review of Francisco Ayala's Darwin's Gift , published late last year, is the typical sort thing that I want to be able to write without getting into a distracting argument about the propriety of even writing it, as opposed to an argument about whether the views there are correct. There is nothing improper about writing a review like that (that is one thing that I'm prepared to be an absolutist about).

Nor is there anything improper about a review like this, written by Jerry Coyne.

Nor, if it comes to that, one like this, written by (a slightly younger) Chris Mooney a few years ago.

That is not to say that I agree with every word in either of the latter two reviews - I seem to recall quibbling mildly with Jerry about something in the first one when he presented the ideas on his blog a few months back. But we don't all have to agree with the substantive content of each other's reviews; the question that Chris originally raised was not about substantive content but about propriety. The third one, by Chris, is more aggressive than I probably would have written, but that's fine.

As far as I can see, Chris now thinks that there's nothing improper about any of these reviews, though, like me, he reserves the right to disagree with their substantive content (and he's said he'd no longer write the third in the same aggressive way). That's fine. Let's move on to something else. Agreement on that point certainly doesn't cover the whole argument between the accommodationists and the non-accommodationists, but it makes at least one aspect concrete. If the sensible people involved in this debate - and I still want to categorise Chris in that way - all agree at least on this point, then progress has been made.


Blake Stacey said...

On various occasions, I have been told at great length and with utmost gravitas that scientists should not admit to drinking or criticize the Twilight novels, because doing so would frighten a desirable demographic.

Stuart said...


Now THAT is funny

Chris Mooney said...

sounds like progress has been made.

Ophelia Benson said...

Well, Chris, I still think more (and better) progress would be made if you would take the time to answer the questions Russell asked in his comment on your post (number 9, it is), and the ones I asked in my first one (number 17).

In summary, we're both asking you to acknowledge that what you said in yesterday's post is different from what you said in your May 31 post and that therefore all this bafflement at what Russell said in his post on Saturday is (frankly) rather unfair.

The situation is: you say X, we 'new atheists' react to X, you say you're baffled at what we say because you think Y.

This is, in the familiar phrase, like trying to nail Jello to a wall. If you could just admit that you said one thing a month ago and another, different thing yesterday, that would be real progress.

Michael Fugate said...

Chris Mooney initially made the mistake of believing only one strategy exists for increasing the understanding and acceptance of evolution among the general public. I hope he has learned from this error.
This debate helped me to realize that "religious knowledge" is not special and does not address or answer different questions. I think the religion supporters have unwittingly done themselves in by their pronouncements. Chris in his latest post is trying to claim how important Christianity was to the development of science in western Europe, but what he fails to acknowledge is we no longer need religion to understand the world.
If we consider a feedback loop for understanding - observations lead to generalizations via induction and generalizations lead to observations via deduction as a means of continually refining our knowledge, then the generalizations utilized by early scientists to explain their observations were obviously faulty. The god or gods hypothesis does not adequately explain the workings of the universe. Even if we consider things traditionally thought to be outside science, we don't really think about them in fundamentally different ways. I can view Pablo Picasso's "Guernica" or listen to Miles Davis' "So What" and say I don't like Picasso or cubism or modern art or I like Mile Davis or jazz and then someone can suggest another Picasso or cubist or another Davis album or jazz artist and maybe I will change my opinion.
Maybe the philosophers will tell me I am way out of line, but it makes sense to me at the moment.

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You all describe yourselves as noble, uncompromising, take-no-prisoners-because-we-are-too-pure-and-angry-militant-atheists.

Where I come from this is called "being a dick" and its usually the province of the emotionally immature and the socially retarded.

Nichole said...

Whereas you yourself are noble and pure and it doesn't mean you're emotionally immature or socially retarded when you go around calling people dicks.

It is nice that you've abandoned your previous strategy of trying to have a rational discourse about the nihilistic nature of rational discourse. Because that shit made no sense.

Blake Stacey said...

"Chris in his latest post is trying to claim how important Christianity was to the development of science in western Europe, but what he fails to acknowledge is we no longer need religion to understand the world."

I've never understood how people think this particular apologetic argument has any weight. It's like saying that because the printing press helped preserve and disseminate knowledge, we should all be using Gutenberg's technology, and all those people reading "scientific journal articles" on the "Internet" are strident, shrill little bastards who have no place in polite society.

To put it another way: if we should be grateful to Christianity for allowing the rise of modern science, shouldn't we be even more grateful to the secular atmosphere of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, during which more science has been done than in any other period of the same length?

(And that's if you grant the historical accuracy of the argument, which I find dubious. Great scholarly theses could be written on the subject of how science comes to life and the reasons it withers and dies, but such theses are made of footnotes and subtlety and are not often friendly to sweeping generalizations. Yes, Europe was Christian while China was not, but Europe was also expansionist when China was turning strongly isolationist, and sailing around the world provokes discovery in many ways. . . .)

Ophelia Benson said...

"You all describe yourselves as noble, uncompromising, take-no-prisoners-because-we-are-too-pure-and-angry-militant-atheists."

Really? Where?

Ophelia Benson said...


I've just read the 'new atheism' chapter of Mooney-Kirshenbaum's book and the history argument or rather story is just as feeble there. There's just some (questionable) historical narrative with no attempt to make any causal argument. They seem to be convinced that the narrative is itself a causal argument.

Blake Stacey said...

If they were really enamoured of their argument, they'd carry it to the logical conclusion: which branch of Christianity was the most beneficial to science? Marcionites, Arians, Nestorians, Byzantine Orthodox, Cathars. . . Not having read their book, I'd make a stab in the dark and say that it boils down to Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans. It just doesn't seem fair to lump them all together when they tried so gosh-darn hard to make themselves stand out!

Ophelia Benson said...

Ah but that was then and this is now, when the Archbish of Canterbury and the Archbish of Westminster (Anglican and Catholic respectively) join the chief rabbi to try to prevent right to die legislation. Then it was the Antichrist or the rebel or the heretic that was the enemy, now it's secularism. Changes the whole ballgame.

Robert Byers said...

I am a Evangelical christian.
Its brought up in the posts here about christianity and its help in science.
yet i would insist science is just another example of the rise in intelligence of peoples.
i further say this came from christianity's impact on a post Roman world and more so since the protestant reformation and mostly from the Puritan/Evangelical wing.
This explains the greater acheivment of the anglo-American civilization and why creationism is most prevealant here.
Simply put error has a harder time among more intelligent civilizations.
Modern world and science is the patent of those closest to strict application of the bible.
Puritans of many denominations and their modern offspring Evangelical christians. the real breadbasket of opposition to evolution and other bad ideas.
Not Anglicans. not the south.

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Playing bingo needs more than luck or skills and techniques, contrary to what most believe. Bingo, just like any game of chance, comes with rules and regulations that players should observe. Being a player comes with responsibilities and etiquette.

Winning the Game

The moment you figured out you won, you must immediately yell BINGO, and it should be loud enough for the floor walker to hear. The pot money shall be given to the winner once their winning card is confirmed. Well, in winning or once you know you just won, the most important thing is that you shout the winning word BEFORE the time elapses. If the game proceeds and the next number is mentioned and you failed to shout "Bingo", your winning card is disqualified. Therefore, this is the rule you must know.

There may be cases when there are two winners, and in this case the pot money shall be divided equally among the winners. Supposing there are two winning cards, the two winners will share half the prize money.

Bingo Game Rules

Bingo rules are basically the same no matter in which Online Bingo hall you play. But still it's good if you know these rules by heart. If it is your first try, then ask for handouts and inquire from pros regarding the game rules. Nonetheless, the ideal thing to do if you have questions is to ask the floor walker and not the person seated beside you. You should clarify things and doubts before the game starts because asking too many questions as the game proceeds could well distract you. This guideline also applies to those who are newcomers at casinos, those who play roulette for the first time.

Bingo halls demand an age limit of 18 years old. If you are below this age, you are prohibited to play. Some bingo houses ban alcohol inside, so players aren't supposed to take liquor nor drink it inside the venue. Smoking may also be restricted inside the venue, as there are designated smoking sections.

Take note that some Bingo houses don't allow food but some do, so it basically depends on the venue. Policies vary among different venues. For instance, some bingo halls allow reservation of cards, while others don't allow it. Some allow people to leave the venue in the middle of the game, others forbid it. But there are general policies observed in all bingo houses, such as disqualification of tampered bingo cards. There is no way you can get away with a tampered card because the walkers are adept at identifying authentic cards from tampered ones. You could be banned from a bingo establishment if proven liable of tampering a card. Hence, you should play honestly.

Interestingly, some venues offer special bingo games for kids although some halls don't allow players to have companions while playing. Suppose you bring kids with you, don't let them run around the venue and bother other gamers. They should behave well whilst you play and the game proceeds. Play quietly and don't recite the numbers you desperately want to come off because you'll be much of a disturbance if you do. Decorous playing is expectant of all players, even those who play roulette at casinos. Also, having a valid identification is important because you don't know you might win and need to present credentials.

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Anonymous said...

whats up everyone

great forum lots of lovely people just what i need

hopefully this is just what im looking for, looks like i have a lot to read.

Anonymous said...

Stuck !
how do i put my signature thingy at the bottom