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Australian philosopher, literary critic, legal scholar, and professional writer. Based in Newcastle, NSW. Author of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND THE SECULAR STATE (2012), HUMANITY ENHANCED (2014), and THE MYSTERY OF MORAL AUTHORITY (2016).

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

Hitchens at his best

After complaining about the militarist side of Christopher Hitchens yesterday, let me point out this performance in a new debate with Alister McGrath about the value of religion. It seems to me a bit of mismatch: McGrath is intelligent, moderate, and sometimes engages sympathy. Part of his problem as a debater is that he has both a waffly style - he's too gentle and indirect, with expressions such as "What I think I'd like to say to that is ..." - and some unfortunate mannerisms. This can be off-putting, can distract from whatever substance there might be in his arguments.

By contrast, Hitchens is a superb live debater with a bulldozing style. He also had a strong set of points to make, and was obviously comfortable with them all. He's made these points so many times by now that the presentation of them has evolved into a very powerful form. You'd think he'd be getting bored making them over and over, as he debates various opponents, but in this presentation there's no sign of it.

One point that I always find annoying in such debates is that the religious apologist inevitably brings up the old canard about the supposed need for a metaphysical grounding for morality. The non-believer then suggests some kind of naturalistic grounding, based in evolutionary psychology or social necessity, or whatever. Nothing is ever clarified. In fact, it's not at all obvious either that morality needs any metaphysical grounding or that any naturalistic grounding it has is just one thing. The story may be quite complex, and secular moral philosophy and moral psychology are still working it out. That doesn't detract from the widespread practical agreement on at least some core moral ideas, or from the fact that we need morality to meet certain human interests, even if nailing down the exact nature of those interests (and the exact nature of the morality we need) is difficult. Moreover, no religionist has ever told a sensible story as to how morality could have a philosophical grounding even if a being like the Christian deity existed. The whole issue of moral arguments in support of God's existence is such a red herring.

The truth of it, I suppose, is that there are people who crave a simple support for their moral beliefs, and want no complications or uncertainties. There's a fear out there that religion plays upon. To borrow an image from somewhere in John Barth's oeuvre, we're like Loony Tunes characters who have run off the edge of the cliff. When we moralise, we're suspended in thin air, with nothing beneath to hold us up. Or so the fear goes. But that's the wrong way to think about morality: it's something we create, socially, but to meet real needs. It's not just arbitrary, leaving us hanging in air, and that's not the only alternative to a religious account.

Anyway, I suggest that Hitchens won this pretty clearly - certainly at the level of performance, and I think at the intellectual level as well.

65 comments:

Brian English said...

Hitchens has an amazing grasp of facts and a vicious wit. McGrath seems nice enough, but seems dishonest to me. He speaks for "christianity" but never states what it is that he believes. Reminds me of Barney Shwartz? on the Age. These people attack atheists, but keep their beliefs hidden enough so that you can't touch them. Dishonest.

clodhopper said...

Leave poor Alister alone. God made him like that and loves him very much indeed, amen.

Blake Stacey said...

clodhopper:

Ouch!

Brian English said...

God made him like that and loves him very much indeed, amen.
Or doesn't love him if he made him meek and mild (nothing wrong with that) and made Hitch so street wise. God really wanted to test McGrath didn't he?

Bonzai said...

the religious apologist inevitably brings up the old canard about the supposed need for a metaphysical grounding for morality. The non-believer then suggests some kind of naturalistic grounding, based in evolutionary psychology or social necessity, or whatever. Nothing is ever clarified. In fact, it's not at all obvious either that morality needs any metaphysical grounding or that any naturalistic grounding it has is just one thing. The story may be quite complex, and secular moral philosophy and moral psychology are still working it out..

As you say the story is complex, it is a work in progress and involves a lot of plausible speculations. IMO it is not a good debate strategy to expound on our pet theories of naturalistic morality.

If I am in a debate and this question comes up I will simply ask the questioner to explain how religion provides a metaphysical grounding on morality if religious people even in the same faith cannot agree among themselves what the alleged standard is.

Even if "objective morality" exists in some Platonic sense (which I don't believe it does) religion doesn't provide a useful way to discover it. Religious systems are based on alleged "revelations", in practice it is just men claiming to have a direct phone line to "God" interpreting alleged divine signs. Appealing to authority is its only "methodology" in the final analysis. Worse still, even among those who accept the authenticity of the alleged revelation the interpretive authorities are always contested, sometimes even violently. Religion provides no robust method to make sense even of its own alleged "revelations", let alone discovering the supposedly universal metaphysical foundation of morality.

If "objective morality" exists in some metaphysical realm ethics would be in a sense an empirical science. The scientific method would be necessary in discovering ethical "truth". In this event religion would be even less relevant and it will evaporate just as surly as it does in the natural sciences.

In this way we put the ball back in their court and let them shoot themselves on the foot.

Roko said...

The truth of it, I suppose, is that there are people who crave a simple support for their moral beliefs, and want no complications or uncertainties. There's a fear out there that religion plays upon.

Well said. This is something that I've known for a long time, but I've never managed to put it into words as well as that.

Religion will continue to be popular until a reasonably robust secular morality is developed.

I think that there's something else that people are looking for - in addition to a justification for morality - which I might call a theory of "purpose" or "intrinsic value". People are quite rightly disturbed that philosophy has little to say about what the ultimate purpose of life is.

Unlike bonzai, I do think that an objective morality exists in a platonic sense, but I think that we are a long way from finding it. I think that it will come naturally alongside an objective specification of what life is really all about - a theory of "objective intrinsic value". I'm not a professional philosopher, and philosophers who I speak to all think that I am a little naive in hoping for these things...

clodhopper said...

I don't understand how an 'objective' morality can possibly exist. Maybe if there was a god I could.

Oh, but then, where did his morality come from?

Got any spaces in class Russel?

Roko said...

"I don't understand how an 'objective' morality can possibly exist. "

- but this doesn't really prove anything. Just because you can't see how to define a "canonical", objective system of moral rules doesn't mean that there isn't one 'out there' waiting for our intellects to become sharp enough to find it.

I agree that it's a very tough problem, and it seems likely to me that humans will not find such a system. Of course that doesn't stop a very clever computer or an enhanced human from finding it.

Russell Blackford said...

It really depends on what you mean by "objective". I think there's a sense in which no objective morality exists, as some of you are saying. But there's also sense in which that's not so clear; in any event, it may not be "objective" but it's not arbitrary either. It has its grounding in natural facts about such things as human desires, needs, vulnerabilities, etc.

clodhopper said...

"Of course that doesn't stop a very clever computer or an enhanced human from finding it."

Well, I've always fancied one of those Borg eye thingys.....

Russell Blackford said...

I don't think it's beyond our intelligence to trace the naturalistic roots of morality. I do think that the evidence may be rather gappy, and this may mean that any theories are doomed to be controversial. There's also the problem that we are, as it were, inside our own moral attitudes and intuitions in a way that makes it difficult to get perspective on them. We may be psychologically inclined to rationalise them, rather than treating them with scepticism.

I also think that some of what we'll find out will deflate our pride and be emotionally unacceptable to many people.

E.g., we seem to come with an inbuilt propensity to learn disgust for feces, vomit, rotten meat, etc., and this has obvious advantages for our survival. It makes sense to think of those things as "impure" and to see stuff contaminated with them as, well, contaminated. But various moral systems teach people to transfer such feelings to things that are not dangerous in the same away. I.e., they teach us to feel disgust at the wrong things - whether it be people of certain racial backgrounds, people with certain sexualities, certain sexual practices themselves, interracial marriage. Many of us learn to be disgusted at the food of other tribes, and cannot readily train ourselves out of it, even though we realise it has no deep moral basis (I, myself, am disgusted by the thought of eating horse, cat, or dog meat ... and various other things that come to mind ... even though I realise that they make perfectly acceptable food in other cultures).

In some cases, we can readily accept that our acculturated disgusts are not a good moral guide - the case may be overwhelming that no moral distinction can be made between horse meat and cow meat. But there are other disgusts, ideas of "impurity", and so on, that I'm sure many people will never be able to distance themselves from in that way.

There are a lot of issues like this that I think are the genuine deep issues about morality and its origin. But of course, none of that can be explored in a debate such as the one between Hitchens and McGrath.

Anonymous said...

From my perspective that Hitchens McGrath debate was very odd. Both sides arguing about the morality and aesthetics of religion but rejecting belief on pragmatist grounds as wishful thinking which Hitchens at least seems to think is immoral.

It is incredibly frustrating to hear the talk of a metaphysical grounding for morality, even more so because, as I see it, Hitchens didn't address the issue. He suggests that religious people doing bad things is best explained naturalistically and altruism are easy enough to explain naturalistically but doesn't address the point. The thing is the point was IMO completely dealt with centuries before christianity in the Euthyphro. If God commands one to do something because it is good it can't be good because God commands it. Maybe it seems like too simple a point to make. Or maybe for someone like Hitchens it doen't convey the repugnance he has for the suggestion that religion should be necessary for morality when he believes it to be so IMmoral. However I think it would advance the debate if the sort of issues presented in the Euthyphro were put to everyone who ask questions like: "Where do morals come from if not from God?"

I've been trying to think about why an intelligent person such as McGrath would make this point. I think it comes down to this. Metaethics is one of those areas of philosophy where there is a set of logically exhaustive positions all of which are implausible (even wildly so) in one way or another. I mean consider a debate between a pro-life and pro-choice advocate a moral realist (such as myself) will say one of them is simply mistaken, it is in one sense of the word a factual dispute. A relativist might say that they are both right. An error theorist will say that (in some sense) they are both wrong (if one says that allowing abortion is good and one says that it is bad that is). A non-cognitivist will say that they are merely expressing emotions or something similar. I don't think any of these views accord with common sense and I don't think there are any other positions possible (although one could take different positions for different moral question). The apologist decides that the implausibility must be due to the secular nature of moral philosophy rather than our lack of understanding. IMO you see a similar sort of thing hapenning at a more sophisticated level with Plantinga and his reformed epistemology.

By the way I think the task of coming up with an account of morality is both simpler and perhaps more difficult than tracing its evolutionary roots. It is simply a question of what does it mean to say "charity is good", "It would be better if the holocaust didn't happen" or "I shouldn't try to upset people". Tracing evolutionary roots will give a good predictive account of when someone will say or feel or believe these things but not what they mean or whether they are right if they can be right. The problem is of course is that it seems likely that good is an irreducible term. There may be no simpler way of saying 'A is good' than 'A is good'. This seems to leave intuitions as the starting point to explore what 'the good' is. Not with a view to saying that feels bad therefore it is bad, but with a view to gaining a better understanding of what we in fact intuit when we intuit something like 'murder is wrong'.

Thomas Hendrey

Anonymous said...

Russell it seems to me that my moral disgust of murder is completely different to my disgust of rotten meat. That is not in degree but in kind. I think what we see in a lot of traditional moral systems is a conflation of these two feelings rather than a culturally acquired direction of one of them onto something we wouldn't normally direct them to. e.g. a heterosexual I would say by definition has some sort of feelings which might be called disgust associated with performing homosexual acts. I don't think it is in any sense 'wrong' to have these feelings I just think it is wrong to say therefore homosexuality is wrong.

You're not the only one that I seems to disagree with here, for example I was surprised to hear Rob Sparrow suggesting that there might be something inherently morally wrong with eating artificial human skin or babies born without a brain in a talk he gave to the Monash philosophy society. I was surprised that ANYONE would think there was something MORALLY wrong with such actions. Maybe I've been a consequentialist for so long that I've lost touch with my moral intuitions.

TH

Russell Blackford said...

Thomas, I must be missing something, because I'm not sure where we actually are disagreeing. Would you like to clarify? I take a very different view of these things from Rob.

Is the disagreement that I'd think it perfectly rational, in a sense, for a tribe to have a taboo against eating rotten meat and to incorporate it in what we Westerners would call a system of morality? I do think that, but "in a sense" is important here. As you know, I think that morality is neither absolute (some things "just are" wrong) nor aribitrary and immune to criticism (I think we do have ways to criticise morality rationally, and the values that we fall back on in doing so are largely shared). I certainly don't that there's some kind of metaphysical basis for an injunction "Don't eat rotten meat", and I don't think a tribe with that rule has discovered a moral truth. Yet, it could be a good rule (I don't mean "morally good") for the tribe to have.

Even if the tribe makes various errors (perhaps thinking the rotten meat contains an evil spiritual force, and perhaps thinking that what matters in human conduct is frustrating this force, or perhaps thinking the rule was given to them by a god), it's still a rule that actually has a non-arbitrary naturalistic explanation. We can look at it from the outside and conclude that the rule's origin is in the danger that the rotten meat poses, which in turn is because of the micro-organisms that it contains (rather than any evil spiritual force). Given the state of their knowledge, it's a good rule for them to follow ... just in the sense that it will end up being conducive to values by which it makes sense to evaluate such a rule (e.g. the value of tribal survival).

It won't escape you that the way I look at these things has a lot in common with rule utilitarianism, though it's not quite the same thing. My position is that we can make reasonable evaluations of moral ideas, rules, etc., even while knowing that the people who follow them are likely to have all sorts of pervasive misconceptions about them.

I wish that someone like Hitchens could answer McGrath's point with just one word: Euthyphro!

What I find annoying is that McGrath must know very well how vulnerable his point is to that devastating, terse, one-word reply. However, it's difficult to reply like that without starting quite a long way back in educating the audience. Hitchens handles it quite well from a pure debating viewpoint (he's an accomplished professional debater, of course), but it's not really all that intellectually satisfactory, and he resorts to a rhetorical tactic of his own with his "name me a moral act that a religious can perform but an unbeliever can't perform" schtick.

However, I guess that's the nature of live debate when the participants are aiming at victory rather than enlightenment.

Oh, and I agree with you that the feeling we have towards murder is not the same as the feeling we have towards vomit (say). I wouldn't call the former "disgust", and I think people who say, "I'm really disgusted with your behaviour last night" probably mean something else, some combination of anger, contempt, deep disappointment, etc. OTOH, the feeling that the Nazis had towards the Jews really does seem to have been something closer to disgust in the strict sense. Disgust - or any similar feeling - seems to me to be very dangerous once it escapes the narrow context in which it protects our health from infectious agents.

Brian English said...

I used the Eurypthro defense against PaulEmcz on the RD website. He threw back some Kantian (his term, seems somewhat stoic to me) excuse that god created the whole universe, so whatever was good whether god said so or not was because god created the laws of the universe. Seemed to be some form of infinite regression or something. Every time you show god can't be responsible for morality, the answer is to step back one level and say god is above that level and created the conditions or something. Sigh.

Russell Blackford said...

I don't want to get involved in a long discussion of the Euthyphro problem right now, but it's true that there are theological accounts of moral goodness that make more sense than those destroyed by the Euthyphro paradox. I don't know what the theory was that was inflicted on you, but try the following.

I'm happy for a natural law theorist to spell out a more complex relationship between God's goodness and moral rightness than exists in divine command theory. That can then lead to a productive discussion, but it's a discussion in which neither side has a simple answer.

What a sophisticated theist could say that I would accept as coherent (though I see no reason to think it actually true) is this.

When we say "God is good" we don't mean "God follows his own rules", or anything of the sort; we mean "God is benevolent" or "God desires that human beings flourish", or something like that.

The "best" moral code is the one that will help us flourish. Because God is good in the sense I've described, God wants us to flourish and so wants us to act in certain ways.i.e. in accord with the best moral code.

God has revealed to us what ways we should act if we wish to flourish. Since He made us, He knows exactly what is required, so His advice (as it were) is authoritative.

When we act in accordance with the best moral code, as revealed to us by God, we are said to be acting in a morally good way. This kind of "moral goodness" is not the same thing as God's "goodness". God is not one of us and is not bound to act in the ways that we should act if we are to flourish (though we should be pleased that He is good in the sense in which He is good). He doesn't have to follow the moral code he has prescribed for us.

The best moral code - the one that we will flourish by following - can be discovered by reason. However, God has saved us the trouble by telling us.

Let the theists spell this out. It's a perfectly reputable theory, but in competition with naturalistic ones. What they can say is that they have a moral short-cut that non-believers don't have: they have the authoritative advice as to the best moral code. Of course, we can then contest whether the advice really seems all that convincing or whether some of it appears to be, at best, culture-bound and out-dated (and maybe worse than that).

Brian English said...

I think that was pretty much the idea . Apart from not really explaining anything, except that god gave his believers a short cut to morality (or immorality), it seems so arbitrary and question begging.
God is good, but not the same good as us, thus god can create an imperfect world full of suffering because he "gets" good more than us, and it was deemed to be the best good by god.....etc. Double sigh :)

Russell Blackford said...

Well, if this fairly complicated theological account of morality were actually true, it would have a number of advantages. Provided the deity concerned had actually given adequate guidance somewhere, I think we could be thankful that it made the issue of the best morality one more amenable to determination - I mean, there it would be in God's authoritative revelation. It would also have the advantage of conforming to intutions that there actually is a "best" morality, which is near enough to a "true" morality, rather than, say, a whole lot of moralities some of which may be "better" than others, but none of which is clearly the best, or right or true one (which I think is the real situation). There may be other advantages as well, e.g. the best morality is something that might be discoverable in principle even for those who do not have access to revelation for some reason.

On the other hand, I think there's also a lot to be said against the truth of this picture. The actual purported revelations are a mix of the banal, the barbaric, and so on. They don't seem very helpful to our circumstances. At the least, interpretation appears to be required. The morality that has actually been extracted through interpretation by the churches appears very wanting indeed by evaluational standards that strike some of us as plausible. And there are other possible problems that I'm not sure about and won't try to sort out here. :)

It does seem to me that the deep content of morality, and even the concept of "flourishing" is more deeply contested than this picture allows for, despite there also being the potential for a fair bit of agreement on what morality might be "for".

All in all, the naturalistic picture of morality appears a lot more plausible (at least to me) than a sophisticated theological picture. Also, the actual morality that comes out of secular reasoning without relying on revelation or its interpretation actually seems better than any actual theological morality ... at least by my evaluational standards.

The theological moralists may have responses to all this, of course, but by this time we are into detailed arguments and, to say the least, the theological moralist no longer has a simple, knock-down criticism of "godless" morality. I go much further, of course, and think that the naturalistic account, though incomplete and a work in progress, shows greater promise.

What should also be said, in fairness, is that as the enlightened, sophisticated theist becomes more and more sophisticated - agreeing that revelation needs to be interpreted, and even that the interpretation may require secular moral reasoning to fill out gaps and so on, her actual, practical morality becomes more like that of a secular moral thinker. This surely creates its own interesting dynamic.

Anonymous said...

Russell, maybe when I saw you mentioning disgust as part of a moral system I sort of read views like Sparrow's into it. I think there might remain a couple of points of (perhaps minor) disagreement here. First I don't think it would be good to have a taboo against rotten meat as part of a moral system. It is no doubt good to have a disgust of rotten meat and perhaps for this to be encouraged in a tribal culture, but I think it is dangerous to incorporate them into a moral system. Maybe this stems from my inclination towards moral realism, or maybe from my inclination towards act utilitarianism (or a version of rule utilitarianism which has a tendency to collapse into act utilitarianism in non time travel cases). So perhaps I have a greater tendency to critices arbitrariness in moral systems (or to see arbitrariness where you see none).

Second I think that disgust for certain sexual practices or other races might have a genetic basis rather than a memetic one. I think in moral systems what you see is an elevation of disgust that already exists to disapproval rather than a redirection of this disgust. Of course once disgust becomes disapproval it does get encouraged, and if it is rationalised then it may be extended to things which would not ordinarily be disgusting.

TH

Russell Blackford said...

Thomas ... no, I don't go along with Rob on any of this stuff (actually, Rob was probably being a bit provocative himself).

Re your comment, we're probably even less far apart than you suggest, although analysing it my way I can still argue that it's a good (in a sense) thing (and at least one of the better things that are realistically available) for a primitive hunting band (say) to have a taboo such as "Don't eat rotten meat or contaminate pure food with it, or feed it to others of the tribe." It might not actually be a moral rule in the modern sense, although the meaning of "moral" is very contested. I'm inclined to say that such rules are part of a broadly-construed social phenomenon that we might as well call "morality", much as the word has other uses.

Of course, if the hunting band discovers more about the world, it might adopt a more refined rule about what can be done with rotten meat. It would certainly be dangerous for us to incorporate such a naive rule in our moral system, but our situation is different. It may not be realistic to expect the hunting band to make the kinds of distinctions that we make.

When I evaluate moral systems from other societies I want to be able to make statements about what it's realistic to expect from them, as well as statements about what might be in their (more-or-less objective) interests and so on. I think there's always a lot that can usefully said without falling into either vulgar moral relativism or any sort of naive objectivism.

On your other point, I actually agree with you to an extent. I do think that we probably have some genetic predisposition to be able to learn disgust at certain sexual practices and at people from outgroups (and a lot of their practices, e.g. dietary ones).

This tendency, if it's there, is especially dangerous. To make the popular distinction that evolutionary psychologists are so fond of, there may be something about it that conduced to inclusive fitness in the EEA, but it may not conduce to achieving what we consciously value now (btw, I've just been reading something you wrote where you quite properly make that distinction).

I'll give an example of my own. I don't feel any disgust at my homosexual and bisexual friends. However, I do feel an element of disgust when I try to imagine myself actually, say, tongue-kissing another bloke. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some future research corroborated the idea that there's a genetic element in heterosexual males having that kind of reaction. But of course, even from a viewpoint of enlightened self-interest, it would be irrational to allow that emotional reaction to cut me off from friendships with gay men.

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烟雨遥 said...

白癜风的临床表现是什么?

白癜风为皮损色素完全脱失,呈瓷白色斑,白斑大小形态不一,境界清楚,边缘有色素沉着增加,无自觉症状,暴晒后易出现红斑,甚至水泡,自觉有灼痛、炎症后,白斑可比原发范围大,皮损可发生于任何部位,但较常见于指背、腕、前臂、面颈、生殖器及其周围。白斑常对称或单侧分布,甚至如带状沿神经分布。头部白斑边缘无色素沉着区,或偶有白发而看不出白斑。有的白斑可自行消退,一些患者在夏季日晒后,白斑中心或边缘色素再生,但到冬季色素又可消退。部分患者可伴有粘膜色素减退以口唇多见,外生殖器次之,眼色素亦可受累,但一般不影响视力,这种粘膜白癜风不同于通常所说的粘膜白斑。

外阴白斑以往多主张手术切除,但术后复发率高。近年来通过对以往所谓外阴白斑进行长期随访,发现癌变率仅2%左右;即使已有上皮非典型增生者,也仅有一小部分可发展为原位癌或浸润癌。且实践证明,为控制局部瘙痒,或恢复外阴皮肤正常形态,药物治疗均能取得较为满意的效果。故目前大多主张采用非手术治疗,但治疗后仍应继续随访,特别对增生型营养不良而有溃破、硬结者更应提高警惕,以防发生癌变。
为了统一认识,1975年国际外阴病研究会决定取消“外阴白斑”病名,改称为“慢性外阴营养不良”(ChronicVuIVardystroph),并根据组织病理变化的不同,将其分为3种不同的类型。
外阴白斑是发生在外阴皮肤粘膜处的白色病变,以病变处皮肤增厚、粗糙、萎缩、弹性减退、皮色脱失为特征,常见于大阴唇或小阴唇内侧及阴蒂,严重时可延至阴道、会阴及肛门周围的一种慢性常见妇科疾病。

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