tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post6148442582810088684..comments2023-10-26T22:06:11.166+11:00Comments on Metamagician3000: University goes battyRussell Blackfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-30008621753561401722010-05-26T02:40:46.397+10:002010-05-26T02:40:46.397+10:00Really, it seems to me that the issue is not about...Really, it seems to me that the issue is not about whether he did or did not do anything inappropriate, or about whether his colleague overreacted, but rather whether it is ever appropriate to discipline a faculty member after conducting what seems was only a token and slipshod excuse for an "investigation." The principle at stake is not sexual equality, but rather presumption of innocence until proven guilty.Kirth Gersennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-48746978204483201152010-05-24T18:57:40.521+10:002010-05-24T18:57:40.521+10:00The earlier complaints were nonsense. He did nothi...The earlier complaints were nonsense. He did nothing humiliating or intimidating, and nothing that would have met a legal standard of "offensive". It wasn't even in the workplace, so it's none of the university's business (unless it was behaviour such as to bring the university into disrepute or something of the sort, which it patently wasn't).<br /><br />But the most extraordinary thing about it all is that there were supposedly witnesses to all the incidents, including the fruit bat incident. The investigators should have interviewed those people carefully and reported on their evidence in detail, discussing their demeanour and credibility, in what they sent to the university President. There's no evidence that they even spoke to those people - quite the opposite if the two-page document that we've seen is their entire report. If that's right, they carried out a grossly inadequate investigation, and the President should not have acted on it. He should have either concluded that, taken at its highest, this was an unmeritorious complaint ... or else he could have asked for further investigation (preferably by someone else).<br /><br />I don't know what redress is available in the Irish courts or industrial tribunals, but if there's a convenient way of challenging this process the university could be on shaky ground. It's certainly embarrassing for it that the investigation was so poor and that the President doesn't seem to realise this. He should have obtained legal advice before sending his letter - or perhaps he did but was poorly advised. Or maybe the law in Ireland lets you get away with murder!Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-83789798298982601852010-05-22T18:04:35.083+10:002010-05-22T18:04:35.083+10:00@JJ: not necessarily. The complaints could have be...@JJ: not necessarily. The complaints could have been groundless, but nonetheless non-malicious. It's quite possible that a situation of offence can arise without either party acting in an objectively unreasonable way. <br /><br />The cultural or social expectations of reasonable people can just ... differ. That would be why dialogue or mediation should be the first port of call. Disciplinary measures should, I think, be reserved for people whose conduct is flagrantly unreasonable - i.e. not just according to the subjective standards of the complainant - or who refuse to desist from behaviour that they have been told is causing offence or discomfort.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05840059127758081545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-42938846476577281052010-05-22T10:55:18.693+10:002010-05-22T10:55:18.693+10:00Colin: "The Investigators' report found n...Colin: "The Investigators' report found nothing wrong with any of the earlier incidents."<br /><br />That's not quite accurate. The investigators decided that they couldn't uphold the complaints of earlier harassment on account that (1) Dr. Evans was unaware that he had caused offense and (2) that the complainant hadn't been sufficiently assertive in expressing her displeasure. However, they also found that the complaints were clearly not malicious. It looks to me like Dr. Evans' earlier actions were marginal, not quite enough to be ruled as harassment but not innocent enough for the complainant to be clearly in the wrong.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-22729364675693927652010-05-22T08:42:31.039+10:002010-05-22T08:42:31.039+10:00Yep, that can happen. And I feel very sorry for th...Yep, that can happen. And I feel very sorry for those folk who have had their confidence shredded by a long series of independently trivial slights and put-downs. Complaining about any one would sound petty, but in aggregate, they can be devastating.(My partner was a union rep for years, so I've heard of quite a few.)<br /><br />But is that what happened here? The Investigators' report found nothing wrong with any of the earlier incidents. The complainant admits tht she didn't make much effort to convey her discomfort. How, then, was Evans supposed to know that his conduct was piling straws on the camel's back?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05840059127758081545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-35327607896782016652010-05-22T08:29:11.514+10:002010-05-22T08:29:11.514+10:00Colin: "So you are saying that it was only in...Colin: "So you are saying that it was only in retrospect that the complainant viewed most of the incidents as problematic?"<br /><br />No, I'm thinking more along the lines of a "1000 paper cuts" scenario.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-59391897643651723722010-05-22T07:09:42.139+10:002010-05-22T07:09:42.139+10:00@JJ: So you are saying that it was only in retrosp...@JJ: So you are saying that it was only in retrospect that the complainant viewed most of the incidents as problematic? Well, that doesn't quite square with her testimony, does it? But ok, I guess that's possible; we all try to make sense of events retrospectively.<br /><br />My main point, though, stands: at <i>whatever</i> point that she became uncomfortable, common decency dictates that she tried to bring this to the respondent's attention before making it an official complaint. <br /><br />Nothing in her testimony suggested that she was intimidated or frightened by him. It doesn't spound like he senior to her (if anything, the opposite). And nothing in his behaviour was so completely excessive that we could unambiguously infer malice on his part. <br /><br />That being so, wouldn't a grown-up approach would have been to have a quiet word and say something like: 'Look, I know you probably don't mean anything by it, but I find all the touchy-kissy stuff a bit awkward. And while we're on the subject: sex-jokes? Not really my thing, eh?'<br /><br />Failing that, accepting Evans' offer of some form of unofficial mediation would have been infinitely preferable to going down the formal route. Surely. No?<br /><br />But for whatever reason, she wanted to inflict more damage than that. As I say, without knowing the whole story, we don't know why she felt that way. But simply on the facts that we are told, the complanant's reaction, and that of the university, seems very disproprtionate.<br /><br />As I say, hugs and cheek-kisses are normal for some, inappropriate for others. Likewise mild sexually-themed jokes. The solution - at least in the first instance - is dialogue, not discipline.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05840059127758081545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-21398660306956199452010-05-21T23:47:15.692+10:002010-05-21T23:47:15.692+10:00Colin: "Making an official complaint after mo...Colin: "Making an official complaint after months of silence strikes me as somewhat odd, to say the least."<br /><br />Why does it strike you as odd? Consider that individually, each little infraction doesn't amount to much on its own, an overlong glance here or a slightly randy comment there. It's the cumulative effect of those little things that creates the uncomfortable environment.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-79265614892472341422010-05-21T22:00:47.171+10:002010-05-21T22:00:47.171+10:00What's interesting about most of the discussio...What's interesting about most of the discussions about this case, including this one, is that they're not about academic freedom at all, but rather about the treatment of alleged sexual harassment in the workplace generally. The notion in the petition that UCC's policies are being used to "stifle debate" is preposterous.<br /><br />There might possibly be an argument that academic freedom is so important that certain conduct which is not allowed in the rest of society should have special privileges within universities. But this case doesn't seem to be the poster child for that argument.Elephanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03949830327417287322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-74316212893688299062010-05-21T21:50:34.138+10:002010-05-21T21:50:34.138+10:00Very hard to understand exactly what happened with...Very hard to understand exactly what happened without knowing the whole background, but if the facts are simply as set out here, then of course the University's position is disproprtionate. <br /><br />In any workplace with more than a handful of employees, there is a likelihood that different standards of appropriate behaviour, and different 'comfort zones' will come into conflict. Provided none of them are really in excess of what could be considered reasonable, it is surely incumbent on serious adults to try to find a civilised compromise. <br /><br />That involves communication. Sure, raising such issues can be socially awkward, but I'm afraid recourse to steps that could ruin someone's career is not a reasonable means to avoid awkward situations.<br /><br />By the sounds of this, the complaining party - despite having ample opportunity - did practically nothing to alert Dr Evans to the fact that she considered his behaviour (including conduct such as hugging and kissing in both cheeks, which many of us find perfectly innocuous and non-sexual in many situations) inappropriate.<br /><br />Making an official complaint after months of silence strikes me as somewhat odd, to say the least. Reading between the lines (always a dangerous endeavour, admittedly), esp re the dinner, once could perhaps speculate as to who was really concerned about Dr Evans' behaviour towards the complaining party...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05840059127758081545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-4684409838186150712010-05-21T20:17:10.901+10:002010-05-21T20:17:10.901+10:00This article came to my attentionn some days ago o...This article came to my attentionn some days ago on facebook with links etc and I did go and "sign" the petetion. It occured to me that the professor was being penalised for a percieved sin by a moral arbiter as much as any breach of published ethics...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02451565378939401732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-9409680192167020062010-05-21T15:07:23.037+10:002010-05-21T15:07:23.037+10:00It is very easy to cry sexual harassment these day...It is very easy to cry sexual harassment these days and to avoid ongoing trouble from the complaining person usually a quick guilty is found - but it does bare mentioning some men and women do harass the opposite or even same sex in an overt sexual manner.<br /><br />In this instance I can see some of the woman's stance here. If the paper was presented as a paper on fruit bat sexuality it does require neutral delivery - why? because there are parts of society that actually get off on animal sexuality. Human sex and sexuality is always delivered in a very neutral fashion so as not to cause offense.<br /><br />I would of course prefer this type of thing treated more carefully but I have been threatened with harassment charges for simply telling a woman she looked nice - which was true, and it was because she'd dressed up for an interview, so she looked different to the normal drab lab gown norm.<br /><br />But the real issues of sexual harassment are within churches - smile Russell - but for some reason laws are stopped at the door of some of these institutions.<br /><br />Right, enough said. Both parties need a talking to, not air time...Robert N Stephensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-11646573098654559192010-05-21T03:52:16.504+10:002010-05-21T03:52:16.504+10:00Interestingly, the documents leaked also hint at a...Interestingly, the documents leaked also hint at a part played by the offended colleague's <i>husband</i>. Who was also a member of the university's administration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-11762044574885649152010-05-21T00:32:38.573+10:002010-05-21T00:32:38.573+10:00I've now read the links provided by Elephant. ...I've now read the links provided by Elephant. <br /><br />I'm astonished at the amateurish standard of the investigation and the poor (not to mention sanctimonious) quality of the president's response.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-68308253153487704692010-05-20T23:38:49.965+10:002010-05-20T23:38:49.965+10:00Elephant: "The problem with that is that the ...Elephant: "The problem with that is that the investigators, who heard much more than we did, found no offence prior to the bat-sex incident, and even then that he did not intend to cause offence."<br /><br />I took a look at the documents from the link you posted, and the story seems far more mixed than you describe it.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-74342057932944401442010-05-20T22:01:47.959+10:002010-05-20T22:01:47.959+10:00Actually, it's true that we may not be getting...Actually, it's true that we may not be getting the whole story. In an earlier part of my life, I spent much time advising employers -especially universities re just such cases. I would feel bound by professional ethics not to comment on cases involving most higher education institutions in Australia.<br /><br />But yes, there may be some more dirt on him that we don't know about. That happens. There may also be more extenuation of him that we don't know about. That also happens.<br /><br />The trouble is that future employers are likely to assume the former even without evidence. He's now stigmatised.<br /><br />All we can do is react to facts as found in the investigation, as Elephant says. If the facts change significantly, I'll change my tune.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-1938559430295919022010-05-20T17:36:07.264+10:002010-05-20T17:36:07.264+10:00On academic freedom in Ireland, you might enjoy th...On academic freedom in Ireland, you might enjoy <a href="http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-irish-academia-is-dominated-by-cowards-and-philistines-2168496.html" rel="nofollow">this gem from Kevin Myers</a>, coincidentally published a couple of weeks ago.Elephanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03949830327417287322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-15298850812322412062010-05-20T17:34:59.986+10:002010-05-20T17:34:59.986+10:00@J.J. Ramsey - The problem with that is that the i...@J.J. Ramsey - The problem with that is that the investigators, who heard much more than we did, found no offence prior to the bat-sex incident, and even then that he did not intend to cause offence. All this is detailed in the link in the Telegraph article - http://felidware.com/DylanEvans/ - which we can assume to be genuine given that UCC is complaining about "leaks". (Evans is being disciplined for this leak as well. He denies it was him.)Elephanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03949830327417287322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-27982630331036683112010-05-20T13:25:39.370+10:002010-05-20T13:25:39.370+10:00Warped thinking on your part, Russell.Warped thinking on your part, Russell.myrananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-49749219415273447932010-05-20T10:56:55.621+10:002010-05-20T10:56:55.621+10:00This bit from one of the articles makes me leery o...This bit from <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7734926/Academic-disciplined-over-fruit-bat-sex-paper.html" rel="nofollow">one of the articles</a> makes me leery of supporting a protest against the university:<br /><br /><i>She alleged that the incident came after repeated examples of his "inappropriate" behaviour, in which he kissed her on both cheeks and complimented her appearance.</i><br /><br />It's the "repeated examples" part that's the red flag. If it were clearly only a matter of showing her the paper on fellatio in fruit bats, that would be one thing, but a pattern of unwanted behavior is quite another. I don't think we're getting the whole story here.J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.com