tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post4848816490261500753..comments2023-10-26T22:06:11.166+11:00Comments on Metamagician3000: Godless science fiction writers; godless science fictionRussell Blackfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-75772462102383271312010-02-01T16:33:32.087+11:002010-02-01T16:33:32.087+11:00Hi! I like the new template, especially the links ...Hi! I like the new template, especially the links to the store deals. Good job!<br /><a href="http://www.itemplatez.com" rel="nofollow"> Flash template </a>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02276955676101104266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-45859687513912264632010-01-12T12:22:59.256+11:002010-01-12T12:22:59.256+11:00Isn't it healthy to engage with reasonable peo...Isn't it healthy to engage with reasonable people who disagree with you? I would hope that would be a basic tenant no matter what bent you're coming from. I realize lots of people eschew that which they know they won't agree with, but that ain't the way to do it. It's critical to hear what the "other" has to say. And to truly hear them out. Whether you're a theist reading Stapledon or an atheist reading Lewis or an agnostic reading both, how will you ever be content with your life's perspective without having taken someone else's seriously?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-59379680695411762602010-01-11T16:17:19.157+11:002010-01-11T16:17:19.157+11:00quoth sazerac:
even mike huckabee?
I don't k...quoth sazerac:<br /><br /><i>even mike huckabee?</i><br /><br />I don't know what Huckabee's views are on gender issues. Most fundamentalists would likely hesitate to explicitly use the term "inferior".<br /><br />Does Huckabee believe that the primary role of a woman (as ordained by God) is to bear and raise children? If not, he is diverging from standard fundamentalism. I suggest that it is impossible to hold such a view while also supporting the goals of gender equality and equal opportunity.Theo Brominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14078583453130339726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-15947557676441315492010-01-11T11:23:59.307+11:002010-01-11T11:23:59.307+11:00even mike huckabee?even mike huckabee?sazeracnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-65523013471225449402010-01-11T09:07:35.721+11:002010-01-11T09:07:35.721+11:00A fundy would see no reason to bother spending his...A fundy would see no reason to bother spending his political capital speaking against misogyny, since Heinlein's views in this area are not at all inconsistent with the Christian right.Theo Brominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14078583453130339726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-56001775948748127672010-01-11T08:40:20.218+11:002010-01-11T08:40:20.218+11:00I don't see why a fundamentalist preacher woul...<i>I don't see why a fundamentalist preacher would disagree in principle.</i><br /><br />i'm admit that i'm being intensely cynical here but i'm suggesting that a fundy would not spend his political capital against misogyny because doing so might confuse his audience. that sort of talk usually comes from the left. also, he might have to answer some tough questions if gender equality became the topic of conversationsazeracnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-49662151715119298682010-01-11T07:53:45.470+11:002010-01-11T07:53:45.470+11:00quoth sazerac:
I was disappointed that in demoniz...quoth sazerac: <br /><i>I was disappointed that in demonizing Heinlein, the fundy forgot to mention rank misogyny.</i><br /><br />It has been a while (like maybe 30+ years) since I read any Heinlein, but if by "misogyny" you mean that his writing displayed an attitude towards women as being useful mostly as sex objects, as well as being inferior (intellectually and otherwise), I don't see why a fundamentalist preacher would disagree in principle.Theo Brominehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14078583453130339726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-48161342106019716532010-01-09T21:05:43.266+11:002010-01-09T21:05:43.266+11:00Just dipping my oar in, briefly. Great post, Russ...Just dipping my oar in, briefly. Great post, Russell. The discussion about fantasy is fascinating too, and well worth going into more detail.<br /><br />I can't speak for all writers in the genre, of course, but I find no conflict between being an atheist and fantasy. I read fantasy novels the same way I'd read the bible: as a fabulous story set against an impossible background. Only in the case of fantasy, no one is trying to convince me that it's true.<br /><br />My last series for adults, the Books of the Cataclysm, was in part built upon my attempt to create a pantheology that operated on Darwinist principles. So there's that, too.<br /><br />Keep up the good work!sean williamshttp://www.seanwilliams.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-57031199551858505642010-01-09T09:58:38.739+11:002010-01-09T09:58:38.739+11:00One point that I noted at my blog:
http://dbellis...One point that I noted at my blog:<br /><br />http://dbellisblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/dangers-of-science-fiction.html<br /><br />And which Cloud entirely neglected is that there actually are quite a few Christian science fiction writers out there (even if they are a minority) and someone who wants to avoid reading anything by people who don't share their beliefs (sounds boring to me, but, hey, it that's your thing...) can still read a pretty huge number of works of SF. <br /><br />From CS Lewis' OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET to, more recently, Michael Flynn's EIFELHEIM.David B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-12466627311449041072010-01-09T08:29:37.869+11:002010-01-09T08:29:37.869+11:00Tolkien was a Catholic, yes, but the religiosity o...Tolkien was a Catholic, yes, but the religiosity of its work is in strong tension with, thought not outright contradiction to, Catholic thought. In particular, as Shippey and others have pointed out, Tolkien goes to great pains to leave it ambiguous whether evil in the form of the One Ring is just a negation of good (as the Church would insist), or whether it has a reality/mentality of its own. Similarly, the whole idea of the Elves as finite rational beings who are reincarnated serially after death doesn't actually oppose any specific Catholic doctrine, but it's certainly a weird idea from a Catholic perspective.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-11313544264622760462010-01-09T04:53:34.236+11:002010-01-09T04:53:34.236+11:00Regarding Heinlein and polyandry, i'm not conv...Regarding Heinlein and polyandry, i'm not convinced the fundy was mistaken. Heinlein seems like such a weirdo that wife sharing would appeal to him more than your vanilla sort of polyamory. I was disappointed that in demonizing Heinlein, the fundy forgot to mention rank misogyny.<br /><br />Regarding fantasy, sci-fi and religion, I offer that fantasy provides one further degree of freedom. Though the particulars may remain undefined, sci-fi necessarily holds SOMETHING sacrosanct. This is akin to dogma. If the emotional drive of atheism is against dogma more than deity, the potential for science fiction to present a tension may be relieved by removing all that is sacrosanct. What remains is fantasy.<br /><br />The currents here seem to hold sway beyond the literary. If atheism removes the religious foundation of culture, what must take it's place? Secular humanism has been offered, but there are huge challenges in making up a new religion. One of these involves social glue. The power of myth is the power to connect through imagination. Secular humanism withers the myth of the past. Only the future can be vital.<br /><br />Returning to the literary, fantasy can suffer from a similar challenge to connect. Fantasy offers more freedom to suspend disbelief, but when fantasy loses it's relevance to reality, it loses some power to connect. When fantasy makes great use of balance in this regard, the result often resembles ancient myths. It is beautiful and highly compelling. People are tempted to dispense with disbelief altogether.sazeracnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-67972251430079664242010-01-09T02:38:59.519+11:002010-01-09T02:38:59.519+11:00While the quote about Heinlein enjoying 'polya...While the quote about Heinlein enjoying 'polyandry' is confused, it is certainly the case that <i>Stranger in a Strange Land</i> in particular was heavily influential on the modern polyamory movement, particularly via Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart of the Church of All Worlds.Dave Cakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705146021862350911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-21729153416763468882010-01-08T11:46:54.695+11:002010-01-08T11:46:54.695+11:00'Still, it's not wildly wrong: Stranger in...'Still, it's not wildly wrong: Stranger in a Stranger Land was, indeed, a kind of bible for the hippie movement,'<br /><br />Charles Manson for one! <br /><br />Still, I agree SF tends towards skepticism towards religion. <br /><br />I think it was Michael Moorcock who coined the term 'Shaggy God Stories' for SF stories which provide rational explanations for religious myths. These tales can't be regarded as 'religious' since they provide 'natural' rather than supernatural explanations - even if 'natural' is stretched by the inclusion of time travel or ESP.Shatterfacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18390120752123732543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-4696253180407415982010-01-08T09:29:47.365+11:002010-01-08T09:29:47.365+11:00Great website! (Discovered via Ophelia Benson)
...Great website! (Discovered via Ophelia Benson) <br /><br />One of my favorite relatively recent sci fi novels was the Golden Transcendence trilogy, by John C. Wright. A little clunky in writing style, but what an amazing world he created. Sadly, I discovered the man believes he literally met the Virgin Mary and is now a bit of a right-libertarian crank, but...what a trilogy!Brian Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-56309742137890041732010-01-08T03:48:54.344+11:002010-01-08T03:48:54.344+11:00I would have to credit SF in my journey towards un...I would have to credit SF in my journey towards uncompromising atheism. SF was the first genre of fiction I took a personal interest - other books had been foisted on me by parents. Reading Arthur C. Clarke and Olaf Stapledon as a young teen really had a profound impact on my view of humanity's place in the cosmos. After that, I'm not sure if the parochial worldview of traditional religious belief would seem anything other than a historically contingent and man-made myth.Lemniscatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08365015186200511679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-60726275158595819892010-01-08T01:54:41.467+11:002010-01-08T01:54:41.467+11:00When I was a young Mormon boy (in another life, on...When I was a young Mormon boy (in another life, on a distant planet) I read a fair amount of Orson Scott Card. Even at that age, being too young to have really questioned my parents' faith, the tension between Card's need to cling to Mormon doctrine and the fantastical implausibility of it in any sort of halfway-interesting sci-fi setting was palpable. It reached it's peak in the rather bizarre short story collection <i>Folk of the Fringe</i>, about wandering Mormons in a post-apocalyptic future. Yes, really.James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-45868232662706535872010-01-07T20:08:15.232+11:002010-01-07T20:08:15.232+11:00Well, I already purchased (and am still enjoying) ...Well, I already purchased (and am still enjoying) <em>50 Voices Of Disbelief</em>, so don't think I'm a cheapskate or nuthin'... ;-P<br /><br />I'll look for your Sci-Fi paperbacks (?) at Barnes & Noble or Borders.SaintStephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09440149504772937129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-83675008076973324042010-01-07T19:10:23.175+11:002010-01-07T19:10:23.175+11:00My website (see the links on the left of this blog...My website (see the links on the left of this blog) has some extracts, but I'm afraid that none of my works of fiction are available free, in their entirety, online.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-88761628757616345922010-01-07T18:40:36.881+11:002010-01-07T18:40:36.881+11:00Interesting read, Mr. Blackford.
Are any of your ...Interesting read, Mr. Blackford.<br /><br />Are any of your science-fiction stories available online?<br /><br />If so, and if freely accessible, can you provide a link or two?<br /><br />If so, thanks, and if not thanks anyway!SaintStephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09440149504772937129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-83906887071227726012010-01-07T17:40:52.278+11:002010-01-07T17:40:52.278+11:00not all sci-fi writers are atheists.... didn't...not all sci-fi writers are atheists.... didn't l. ron hubbard invent his own religion. now how many writers get to do that huh?ephmanhttp://www.ephman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-13817326289566360022010-01-07T17:24:57.678+11:002010-01-07T17:24:57.678+11:00I'm not a direct friend of yours, but I am a f...I'm not a direct friend of yours, but I am a fantasy writer! And a sci fi and horror writer. For one thing, I question the claim that fantasy is taking over from SF. There's been a lot of talk about that lately, but no really convincing evidence. The current success of Avatar alone should point that out to some degree.<br /><br />Also, I write urban fantasy/horror stuff mostly and my stuff is heavily influenced by religious themes and the exploration thereof - it's excellent fodder for stories. I think a lot of fantasy explores religious themes, but a lot also explores magic and the supernatural without themes that we would recognise as religious.<br /><br />Then there's the concept of what's actually SF and what's fantasy (Star Wars, which is both, being the primary example - spaceships and the Force). I don't think it's so easy to categorise.Alanhttp://www.alanbaxteronline.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-59819726697759034852010-01-07T15:50:13.089+11:002010-01-07T15:50:13.089+11:00The situation with fantasy is more complicated. I&...The situation with fantasy is more complicated. I'll add it to my growing list of things I promise to post on separately. It's certainly notable that several of the most famous fantasy writers - e.g. J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis - were deeply religious. But William Morris, who was largely responsible for the creation of the modern fantasy genre - was decidedly not. Likewise for many contemporary fantasy writers, among whom I number quite a few friends, including some very close ones. Then there's the fact that I've dabbled (with some success!) in writing fantasy myself.<br /><br />I think that fantasy is motivated, in part, by certain kinds of nostalgia. In particular, it reacted, historically, to the ugly industrial landscapes of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But I think its relationship to religion is quite complicated, and it may sometimes be as subversive as science fiction. The last thing that Morris would have wanted to be was an apologist for religion ... and the same applies to many contemporary fantasy writers (including such a major figure as Philip Pullman).<br /><br />But I need to consider this a bit more. It's a while since I've specifically focused on this issue.<br /><br />Are any of my fantasy-writer friends reading this?Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-5461646837069015742010-01-07T13:24:28.793+11:002010-01-07T13:24:28.793+11:00I glad you brought this up because after listening...I glad you brought this up because after listening to you on Life Matters, I got to thinking about why I was an atheist. And one of principal factors I came up with was that while through Sunday School I was getting a Christian worldview, outside of that I was getting a naturalistic worldview, and a lot of that would have come from SF. Even more so than from any science education I'd got to that point I think. The exposure to all those human futures in which the Christian worldview was irrelevant gave me my conception of the world - one without God.<br /><br />So the fundamentalist is right.<br /><br />And following on from what JonJ asks, I wonder what the eclipse of SF by fantasy on the bookshelves might point to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-26833121845755212792010-01-07T12:31:39.777+11:002010-01-07T12:31:39.777+11:00What does this imply about the enormous popularity...What does this imply about the enormous popularity of fantasy, which has largely taken over from SF in the last two decades? Fantasy worlds are typically set in a static --usually medieval -- location, and their plots rely on mysterious supernatural powers which are never investigated or explained by rational means. Clearly there are links between popular fantasy and the New Age movement, but is there also a deeper link to traditional conservatism and fear of change?Jon Jermeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12802157835972797573noreply@blogger.com