tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post3556575043793398534..comments2023-10-26T22:06:11.166+11:00Comments on Metamagician3000: What you can't say about Islam - the backlash against Elizabeth MoonRussell Blackfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comBlogger93125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-79226956735807465462010-11-04T23:50:30.210+11:002010-11-04T23:50:30.210+11:00@ Arizona
If you have anything more to say, you ma...@ Arizona<br />If you have anything more to say, you may email me privately:<br />stkrtk@yahoo.com<br /><br />Barbara BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-3878797932856063982010-11-04T11:25:58.187+11:002010-11-04T11:25:58.187+11:00I'm closing this thread now. It's pretty s...I'm closing this thread now. It's pretty stale by this point, and the one or two people who are still debating aspects have had plenty of chance to have their say.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-7883549167527873502010-11-04T00:56:28.775+11:002010-11-04T00:56:28.775+11:00@ Arizona
Arizona wrote: “As a human rights activ...@ Arizona<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “As a human rights activist I would assume that you are guided by the UN Declaration which, at Article 18, upholds religious freedom. This would include Jews' rights to practice circumcision. On the other hand, infant genital mutilation could be interpreted as contrary to Article 5 relating to "cruel treatment". So unfortunately, even this modern "sacred text" or "religious writing" contains implied contradictions.”<br /><br />I don’t believe in freedom of religion if it violates the rights of others (including the rights of children and non-human animals). Circumcision violates the rights of children to bodily integrity. The Jews could make it so that they wait until the child reaches the age of majority and decides for himself. Then I would have nothing against it. Heck, they can cut off the whole penis if they like.<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “Also unfortunately, claims to moral supremacy are not reserved for religionists.”<br /><br />I believe, like Immanuel Kant and many other philosophers, that the final authority on morality is reason. Present a rational argument to justify your moral claims. Religions cannot do that.<br />Barbara B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-61003890411630349282010-11-04T00:56:07.185+11:002010-11-04T00:56:07.185+11:00@ Arizona
I (Barbara B) wrote: "And this is ...@ Arizona<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "And this is as senseless as most religious writings."<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “I didn't really think you'd like or recognize my "treasure".”<br /><br />No, I don’t think so. I am a rationalist. I don’t value nonsense.<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "But Islam bothers me the most because it has the strongest condemnation of equal rights for women."<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “I think you go too far here. The Koran actually enhanced women's rights by the standards of the time. It nowhere condemns those rights but merely fails, by modern standards, to enhance them sufficiently.”<br /><br />“Koran enhances women’s rights”!!!!!!! That is so absurd I cannot even comment on it.<br />Here is how Koran enhances women’s rights:<br />http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101103/ap_on_re_eu/iran_stoning<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "But I fight for all human rights and I have no regard for religion. Morality comes first."<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “You sound to me to be very much a person of the modern Western world which is a Christian and post-Christian world. You sound like a cultural Christian even if no longer a believing one.”<br /><br />I’d like to think that I am a person of the modern Western world, but most of all I’d like to think that I am a rationalist. History is not my fault. I don’t think I am any kind of Christian. As I said above, I don’t believe in love as having anything to do with morality. That is very anti-Christian.<br />Barbara B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-5726802463262740592010-11-04T00:55:42.666+11:002010-11-04T00:55:42.666+11:00@ Arizona
I (Barbara B) wrote: "That is true...@ Arizona<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "That is true, and that is because the Koran is not a book of poetry. It says what is says."<br /><br />Arizona said, “The Koran does claim that it says what it says and that it is not poetry. That doesn't prevent people from reading sections of it as poetry and it doesn't prevent people from interpreting it in many many ways. Because it is in ancient Arabic it lends itself to multiple understandings.”<br /><br />No, there are no multiple understandings unless you twist it around. Women in Koran are seen as property of men. There is no other way to interpret it.<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “I'm sorry that you don't appreciate the love and support of men but rather see this as jeopardising women's equal rights.”<br /><br />I can appreciate ONE man’s love, not a whole bunch of men! But there cannot be love without respect of equal rights.<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "You, on the other hand, claim that someone can be a Nazi and still respect the rights of Jews."<br /><br />Arizona wrote, “That could have been the case in some instances. However, Jew hatred was a central part of Nazi ideology so that Nazis respecting Jews would have been a rare thing. …..,,,cut>>><br /> <br />You did not understand my comparison. Saying that a Muslim respects women’s rights is like saying that a Nazi respects the rights of Jews.<br /><br />Arizona said, “….Many atheists and liberals are now joining in for similar reasons: it's easier to direct one's aggression at a vulnerable target than directly to confront the real enemy. You seem to have avoided this trap and for that I do applaud you.”<br /><br />I don’t hate Jews as an ethnic group, but I do hate some religious Jews for their beliefs. For example, I recently sent a protest letter to two Jewish organizations in New Zealand for opposing humane slaughter laws. Religious Jews cannot eat meat unless the animal was painfully killed! I told them, if you cannot eat painlessly killed animals then become vegetarians. In fact, there are Jewish religious leaders who advocate vegetarianism: <br />www.jewishveg.com/<br /><br />Barbara BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-38451584300997675212010-11-03T15:56:20.396+11:002010-11-03T15:56:20.396+11:00@ Barbara (5)
I'm glad to see we agree on som...@ Barbara (5)<br /><br />I'm glad to see we agree on some things, around the issue of bodily mutilation without adult consent.<br /><br />You wrote: "But I fight for all human rights and I have no regard for religion. Morality comes first."<br /><br />You sound to me to be very much a person of the modern Western world which is a Christian and post-Christian world. You sound like a cultural Christian even if no longer a believing one.<br /><br />As a human rights activist I would assume that you are guided by the UN Declaration which, at Article 18, upholds religious freedom. This would include Jews' rights to practice circumcision. On the other hand, infant genital mutilation could be interpreted as contrary to Article 5 relating to "cruel treatment". So unfortunately, even this modern "sacred text" or "religious writing" contains implied contradictions.<br /><br />Also unfortunately, claims to moral supremacy are not reserved for religionists.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-52520736268654736852010-11-03T15:55:00.679+11:002010-11-03T15:55:00.679+11:00@ Barbara (4)
You wrote: "And this is as sen...@ Barbara (4)<br /><br />You wrote: "And this is as senseless as most religious writings."<br /><br />I didn't really think you'd like or recognize my "treasure".<br /><br />You wrote: "But Islam bothers me the most because it has the strongest condemnation of equal rights for women."<br /><br />I think you go too far here. The Koran actually enhanced women's rights by the standards of the time. It nowhere condemns those rights but merely fails, by modern standards, to enhance them sufficiently.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-32993155588461573982010-11-03T15:54:19.489+11:002010-11-03T15:54:19.489+11:00@ Barbara (3)
You wrote: "You, on the other ...@ Barbara (3)<br /><br />You wrote: "You, on the other hand, claim that someone can be a Nazi and still respect the rights of Jews."<br /><br />That could have been the case in some instances. However, Jew hatred was a central part of Nazi ideology so that Nazis respecting Jews would have been a rare thing. There are many many Muslims today who don't respect Jews, I cannot deny that. Nor would I deny that there is a core of Jew hatred in Islam that is embedded even in the Koran. It lives side by side there with a clear respect for Jews. There are modern Muslims who see past the hatred, who can contextualize it and even repudiate it as an error. These Muslims prefer to dwell on the respect side of the equation. I admit that they appear to be rarer or at least more quiet than the straight forward Jew haters.<br /><br />The Muslim hatred of Jews is much like the Christian hatred of Jews. Both see the Jews as a challenge or an obstacle to their own supremacy, especially viz a viz each other. Jews are an easier target for attack than the other equally powerful monotheism. Many atheists and liberals are now joining in for similar reasons: it's easier to direct one's aggression at a vulnerable target than directly to confront the real enemy. You seem to have avoided this trap and for that I do applaud you.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-11206073196695128152010-11-03T15:52:19.504+11:002010-11-03T15:52:19.504+11:00@ Barbara (2)
You wrote: "That is true, and ...@ Barbara (2)<br /><br />You wrote: "That is true, and that is because the Koran is not a book of poetry. It says what is says."<br /><br />The Koran does claim that it says what it says and that it is not poetry. That doesn't prevent people from reading sections of it as poetry and it doesn't prevent people from interpreting it in many many ways. Because it is in ancient Arabic it lends itself to multiple understandings.<br /><br />I'm sorry that you don't appreciate the love and support of men but rather see this as jeopardising women's equal rights.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-22592276414579562692010-11-03T15:51:32.433+11:002010-11-03T15:51:32.433+11:00@ Barbara (1)
During the *religious* persecutions...@ Barbara (1)<br /><br />During the *religious* persecutions Jews were seen as a religious group. The Nazi persecution added a racist element to that, thus disallowing conversion as a means of escape from persecution.<br /><br />You wrote: "For Muslims to fully integrate into Western norms they would have to forget their religion, which clearly states that women are property of men."<br /><br />All that a modern Muslim needs to do is recognize that the Koran was applicable on these points 14 centuries ago and not today.<br /><br />You wrote: "a Muslim is an adherent of the religion of Islam. So I don’t understand you."<br /><br />A Muslim is a person, Islam is a faith and Islamism a political ideology. It's one thing to hate or denounce (aspects of) Islam(ism) and quite another to hate or denounce the people associated with it, people who will have various types and levels of adherence. There are, for example, many cultural Muslims who are effectively atheists but are not vocal about it.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-13965081364703520372010-11-03T05:56:36.839+11:002010-11-03T05:56:36.839+11:00@ Arizona cont…
Arizona wrote: “I realize that Mu...@ Arizona cont…<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “I realize that Muslim self-assertion can be very annoying to some Christians but I think it is better to be consciously so rather than hateful while pretending a Christian love and understanding. So I do think that, in practical terms, Allah's advice does complement or complete the Judeo-Christian prescription.”<br /><br />I am not defending Christianity or any other religion. They are all nonsense. But Islam bothers me the most because it has the strongest condemnation of equal rights for women. <br /> <br />Arizona wrote: “As for female circumcision, it is indeed a terrible thing. However, it is not a specifically Islamic practice but rather a more ancient practice common among African people of various religions. It is shameful that Islam has not been able to eradicate it and this should be an important aspect of Muslim introspection.”<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “However, the circumcision of male babies is also a terrible thing even if somewhat less terrible than for young females. It has been widely practiced among Christians for pseudo-medical reasons and, of course, it is central to the Judaic faith.”<br /><br />I agree with that too, except for the part that circumcision is a Christian thing. It is practiced in the United States by ignorant people of all faiths and maybe even atheists.<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “I think it best to leave the Muslims to their introspection and get on with our own.”<br /><br />I don’t consider male circumcision my own. I am neither Jewish nor American. I do speak against it. I send informational letters if I hear of anyone who is going to have a baby boy. But I fight for all human rights and I have no regard for religion. Morality comes first. <br />Barbara B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-14167037910142074402010-11-03T05:56:16.361+11:002010-11-03T05:56:16.361+11:00@ Arizona cont…
I (Barbara B) wrote: "What t...@ Arizona cont…<br /><br />I (Barbara B) wrote: "What treasures? Are you joking? And they should feel humiliated because of moral backwardness of their religion. They can take their newborn daughter and cut off her clitoris with a razor. They should be ashamed!"<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “ I don't think you have a frame of mind that would be ready to receive a treasure and respect it for what it was worth. Still, I will put forward one of my favourite passages from the Koran and see how you take it.”<br /><br />Koran 42: 40-41 (Arberry trans) ... and the recompense of evil is evil the like of it; but whoso pardons and puts things right, his wage falls upon God; surely He loves not the evildoers. And whosoever helps himself after he has been wronged -- against them there is no way.<br /><br />This basically says that evil is evil. But Muslims do not think that treating women like property is evil. The Koran tells them it is the right thing to do.<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “This sums up Judaic law - "an eye for an eye" - followed by the Christian way - "love your enemy" - but then rounded out by Islamic law which allows for self defence and avenging a wrong done to one. There is a move from revenge to compassion to a more realistic self-assertion. I like the simplicity of this summing up.”<br /><br />And this is as senseless as most religious writings.<br />Barbara B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-1700179173983741032010-11-03T05:55:25.995+11:002010-11-03T05:55:25.995+11:00@ Arizona
I (Barbara B.) wrote: "I meant Je...@ Arizona <br /><br />I (Barbara B.) wrote: "I meant Jews as in ethnic group, not religion. One can be a Jew and an atheist."<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “True, but during the religious persecutions Jews were seen mainly as religious and could convert to escape persecution.”<br /><br />I am not sure about that. I have seen many films about the Holocaust, and I was always under the impression that Jews were being prosecuted for their ethnic background, not their religion, similarly to the Roma. Maybe in other history there were prosecuted for their religion. <br /><br />Arizona wrote: “Even today, a Jew can become a Muslim - some have done so - and then be accepted among Muslims, including those Muslims who work toward the eradication of the Jewish State and of all of its Jewish inhabitants. Jews who convert to Islam are thus no longer counted (by Muslims) as Jews that might need to be eliminated.”<br /><br />That could be because Muslims are a religious group and they are motivated by religion. The Nazis were not motivated by religion.<br /><br />I (Barbara B.) wrote: "To me they are responsible for Islamophobia because of their treatment of women and their attitude towards equal rights."<br /><br />Arizona wrote: “In the context of the discussion, I was tacitly referring to *our* laws and *our* societal norms when I wrote "law abiding and socially integrated Muslims". I took this to be the tacit assumption in the Derschowitz article. Since our laws and norms disallow the mistreatment of women and affirm their equal rights, it follows that a law abiding and socially integrated Muslim cannot be contributing to Islamophobia in the way you claim here. I think you are picturing Muslims who whip or stone rape victims or do not allow women to drive cars. They are abiding by different laws here, not ours. I would agree that they are contributing to Islamophobia but they are not the Muslims being referred to in the discussion.”<br /><br />For Muslims to fully integrate into Western norms they would have to forget their religion, which clearly states that women are property of men. <br /><br />Barbara B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-9249442374973124222010-11-02T19:13:02.962+11:002010-11-02T19:13:02.962+11:00@ Barbara continued
As for female circumcision, i...@ Barbara continued<br /><br />As for female circumcision, it is indeed a terrible thing. However, it is not a specifically Islamic practice but rather a more ancient practice common among African people of various religions. It is shameful that Islam has not been able to eradicate it and this should be an important aspect of Muslim introspection. However, the circumcision of male babies is also a terrible thing even if somewhat less terrible than for young females. It has been widely practiced among Christians for pseudo-medical reasons and, of course, it is central to the Judaic faith. I think it best to leave the Muslims to their introspection and get on with our own.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-55504335304587603762010-11-02T19:12:35.442+11:002010-11-02T19:12:35.442+11:00@ Barbara continued
You wrote: "What treasu...@ Barbara continued<br /><br /><br />You wrote: "What treasures? Are you joking? And they should feel humiliated because of moral backwardness of their religion. They can take their newborn daughter and cut off her clitoris with a razor. They should be ashamed!"<br /><br />Barbara, I don't think you have a frame of mind that would be ready to receive a treasure and respect it for what it was worth. Still, I will put forward one of my favourite passages from the Koran and see how you take it.<br /><br />Koran 42: 40-41 (Arberry trans) ... and the recompense of evil is evil the like of it; but whoso pardons and puts things right, his wage falls upon God; surely He loves not the evildoers. And whosoever helps himself after he has been wronged -- against them there is no way.<br /><br />This sums up Judaic law - "an eye for an eye" - followed by the Christian way - "love your enemy" - but then rounded out by Islamic law which allows for self defence and avenging a wrong done to one. There is a move from revenge to compassion to a more realistic self-assertion. I like the simplicity of this summing up. I realize that Muslim self-assertion can be very annoying to some Christians but I think it is better to be consciously so rather than hateful while pretending a Christian love and understanding. So I do think that, in practical terms, Allah's advice does complement or complete the Judeo-Christian prescription.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-8102049516670019692010-11-02T19:11:56.258+11:002010-11-02T19:11:56.258+11:00@ Barbara continued
You wrote: "I would have...@ Barbara continued<br /><br />You wrote: "I would have exactly the same issue: Muslims are misogynists. Misogyny is written into their religion."<br /><br />You are failing here to distinguish Muslims from Islam and you are failing to allow for a variety of interpretations of Islam. The Taj Mahal stands as an imposing testimony to one Muslim's capacity to love and honour a woman and I know some plain ordinary Muslim males who are very loving and supportive of women, including a non-Muslim woman like myself. I would agree with you that the Koran (including the supporting traditions and biographies) fails to measure up to modern standards regarding women's rights. However, this does not have to lead to misogyny or be interpreted as such. What comes from reading the Koran is as much in the reader as in the text itself.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-37642904083010462572010-11-02T19:11:21.987+11:002010-11-02T19:11:21.987+11:00@ Barbara continued ...
You wrote: "To me th...@ Barbara continued ...<br /><br />You wrote: "To me they are responsible for Islamophobia because of their treatment of women and their attitude towards equal rights."<br /><br />In the context of the discussion, I was tacitly referring to *our* laws and *our* societal norms when I wrote "law abiding and socially integrated Muslims". I took this to be the tacit assumption in the Derschowitz article. Since our laws and norms disallow the mistreatment of women and affirm their equal rights, it follows that a law abiding and socially integrated Muslim cannot be contributing to Islamophobia in the way you claim here. I think you are picturing Muslims who whip or stone rape victims or do not allow women to drive cars. They are abiding by different laws here, not ours. I would agree that they are contributing to Islamophobia but they are not the Muslims being referred to in the discussion.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-37529955230473850162010-11-02T19:10:44.911+11:002010-11-02T19:10:44.911+11:00Hello Barbara,
You wrote: "I meant Jews as in...Hello Barbara,<br />You wrote: "I meant Jews as in ethnic group, not religion. One can be a Jew and an atheist."<br /><br />True, but during the religious persecutions Jews were seen mainly as religious and could convert to escape persecution. Even today, a Jew can become a Muslim - some have done so - and then be accepted among Muslims, including those Muslims who work toward the eradication of the Jewish State and of all of its Jewish inhabitants. Jews who convert to Islam are thus no longer counted (by Muslims) as Jews that might need to be eliminated. The Jewish community widely accepts Jews as "still Jews" after adopting atheism but they are divided over Jews who convert to Christianity or Islam. Some accept them as "still Jews" and some don't.Arizonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074267752763783513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-6655914981941295152010-10-31T17:09:48.198+11:002010-10-31T17:09:48.198+11:00(a) Wiscon should be held to the same standard of ...(a) Wiscon should be held to the same standard of courtesy as everyone else. (b) Sge did engage and had every right to delete comments when subjected to an organised campaign of intimidation - which is what happened. I know more than you think. (c) You don't disinvite someone because you don't like their level of engagement on their blog. People get to run their blogs as they want.<br /><br />It sounds like you've swallowed the committee's propaganda line.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-61672583840351164972010-10-31T16:56:38.055+11:002010-10-31T16:56:38.055+11:00Russell said: "Simon, I don't think you&#...Russell said: "Simon, I don't think you're being serious. I'm sure I understand science fiction fandom vastly better than you do."<br /><br />Your experience with fandom may be vast, but you've admitted you haven't been to a Wiscon. Elizabeth Moon would not and should not have been disinvited as Guest of Honour at a Worldcon or any convention BESIDES WisCon, the convention whose mission statement is to "encourage discussion, debate and extrapolation of ideas relating to feminism, gender, race and class."<br /><br />Elizabeth Moon refused to discuss. She refused to debate. That's why she was disinvited - not straight after making those comments, but some weeks later after refusing to discuss them. <br /><br />People should be able to criticise Islam without fearing reprisal. Guests of Honour at WisCon should be open to debate about their bigoted beliefs. The two topics bear no relation to one another.<br /><br />T.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-83528344360476909642010-10-30T22:56:59.198+11:002010-10-30T22:56:59.198+11:00Don't worry about it, Colin. Your posts someti...Don't worry about it, Colin. Your posts sometimes turn up in triplicate - the system seems to freak out if posts are beyond a certain length - but straightening it out is not difficult.<br /><br />All posts currently have to go through moderation. I don't like doing this, but it means I can weed out really crazy stuff (Dave Mabus for example) without having to move to a different platform with more functionality.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-21067001761015687972010-10-30T18:51:54.758+11:002010-10-30T18:51:54.758+11:00@Russell: I keep getting 'your post is too lon...@Russell: I keep getting 'your post is too long' messages, but the msgs seem to turn up eventually anyway. If I have submitted slightly edited versions of the same post, 'pologies, but that may be why.ColinGavaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-66741872542148045752010-10-30T17:55:58.127+11:002010-10-30T17:55:58.127+11:00Some tidying done of double and triple posts, or w...Some tidying done of double and triple posts, or whatever. Hopefully nothing has been lost.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-18212415829392793582010-10-30T16:12:20.235+11:002010-10-30T16:12:20.235+11:00Simon, it's not just the sf community, but you...Simon, it's not <i>just</i> the sf community, but you asked me to prove something that I said specifically about the sf community.<br /><br />In my experience, it goes <i>much</i> deeper ... into the general literary and academic communities for example, and parts of the mass media. I'm talking about the fact that people like me and many readers cannot say certain things about Islam, Muslims, Muslim leaders and communities, and so on, without being demonised, shunned, intimidated. The things that we cannot say go far beyond the narrow range of obviously hateful or even angry speech.<br /><br />But while we're on the subject of the science fiction community, the World Fantasy Convention is happening right now, in Columbus, Ohio, and all this is being discussed. I decided not to go this year, but I have plenty of friends there including my wife. From what I'm hearing back, there is no real precedent for disinviting guests of honour in this way for any reason, let alone for anti-Israel remarks. The nearest example anyone seems to know of involved ... once again, comments regarding Islam.<br /><br />But sheesh, even Dawkins gets demonised for saying things about the pope or whatever. It is a theme of this blog to defend our legal right and our practical ability to criticise religions and associated cultures. That was the context of the post.<br /><br />It was never specifically about the US. I mentioned that the convention is in a relatively small city in the US to make clear that it wasn't in the sort of place that was likely to be a target for a retaliatory terrorist attack after a blog post at level of being inflammatory that we're talking about, so <i>that</i> concern wasn't the reason for the disinvitation. The same thing can happen anywhere in the Western world right now. In the kind of circles where many of us move, you need to be <i>very</i> careful what you say or face the possibilty of losing speaking engagements, being branded as racist by people who are supposedly on your own side, etc., etc.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-79248677414992017592010-10-30T05:59:39.370+11:002010-10-30T05:59:39.370+11:00In my opinion, someone who believes that women sho...<i>In my opinion, someone who believes that women should cover themselves from head to toe, be flogged for wearing pants, and be stoned for being a rape victim, deserves second class status.</i><br /><br />This is a bit of a non-sequitur, since none of the Muslims Moon is excoriating (e.g. those wanting to build Cordoba House) advocate "flogging women for wearing pants." <br /><br />But that aside, what did you have in mind, Barbara, to demarcate this second-class status? Should we allow them to vote? Sit at lunch counters? Attend the same same schools as non-Muslims?Chris Schoenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14993906736813166617noreply@blogger.com