tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post8543957926730377424..comments2023-10-26T22:06:11.166+11:00Comments on Metamagician3000: What's so creepy about an age gap? Trying to understand...Russell Blackfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-78955000730484578702011-07-23T20:42:22.325+10:002011-07-23T20:42:22.325+10:00To Colin Gavaghan: thanks for your notes on the in...To Colin Gavaghan: thanks for your notes on the incest issue. First sane comments I've heard on the topic for a long time. <br /><br />About visceral reactions:<br />They don't actually say anything about their <i>objects</i>, but only about the psychological makeup, background, conditioning or whatever, of those <i>having</i> them. And people are different for a myriad reasons. <br /><br />People also come together and form bonds of 'love', often with significant sexual components, for more reasons that you can throw a stick at. I find the notion that some reasons are more 'acceptable' than others quite ludicrous. Live and let live, mind your own biz and tidy up your own mind, is what I think of it all.<br /><br />As for Deng and Murdoch: the woman was a veritable tigress in that hearing in London when she thought someone was about to attack her man. I suspect there's more here than mere status-seeking on the part of the woman, and more than the trophy-wife thing for the man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-80511876250065930152011-07-20T22:39:36.356+10:002011-07-20T22:39:36.356+10:00@March Hare:
"Any reaction (like this one) th...@March Hare:<br />"Any reaction (like this one) that hits us before our conscious idiocy rationalises it away is obviously evolutionary in its source."<br /><br />Careful, that's by no means obvious. <br /><br />We can talk a good evolutionary just-so story and still not be clear that the behaviour we observe is the result of any particular chain of adaptations or that all sorts of environmental influences aren't also in play.latsothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416425323815902310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-76746305060246093122011-07-20T22:05:12.678+10:002011-07-20T22:05:12.678+10:00I wonder if discomfort about relationships like th...I wonder if discomfort about relationships like this comes partly from the expectation that each person wants something different from that relationship and that those requirements are only superficially compatible. <br /><br />This is true of a lot of relationships and people don't usually have too much of a problem with those. But in cases like Deng and Murdoch, it looks very *explicit* as though the relationship is more like a business relationship between the two, but *masquerading* as the sort of romantic relationship most of us are familiar with. <br /><br />Perhaps another way of putting it is that we can understand Murdoch wanting a younger woman and Deng wanting a fabulous lifestyle and we assume that is at least partly what motivates the relationship. So it seems slightly odd or incongruous when they actually act like a normal couple, holding hands, going for a meal or whatever, because this doesn't contribute to our assumptions about their motivations.<br /><br />I'm not explaining this well and I'm not totally convinced by my own explanation. Part of my own reaction to the picture posted was irritation that the relationship looks like such a cliche. I'm not sure at all why this should irritate me.latsothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416425323815902310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-29720982747533708552011-07-20T10:08:38.513+10:002011-07-20T10:08:38.513+10:00Yesterday's events maybe shed a little more li...Yesterday's events maybe shed a little more light on the first example. Wendi Deng: trophy wife ... and bodyguard? http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/video/2011/jul/19/rupert-murdoch-jamesmurdochColinGavaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-47062358080465193902011-07-18T18:32:46.299+10:002011-07-18T18:32:46.299+10:00@Alex: no no, I understood that. Sorry if my post ...@Alex: no no, I understood that. Sorry if my post implied otherwise.ColinGavaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-77684138683414611542011-07-18T18:31:36.343+10:002011-07-18T18:31:36.343+10:00@AlexSL - I think your phrase "innocent love&...@AlexSL - I think your phrase "innocent love" is really telling. I think I know what you mean - something like disinterested love, love that's not tainted by calculation, self-interest, material factors of any kind, if I'm reading you right. But it's not a yardstick you can hold up to anyone else, even if you wholeheartedly apply it to yourself. Love is just love. The factors that feed into it, conscious and unconscious, aren't easy to define even for the person that's feeling it. I'm not sure that the innocence you're referring to really exists, or if it exists that it has any real moral weight.Mike Careynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-57190877328718319722011-07-18T16:35:14.232+10:002011-07-18T16:35:14.232+10:00I think that part of the trouble with Rogneto has ...I think that part of the trouble with Rogneto has been that Marvel is inconsistent with how old it actually makes Magneto look. Sometimes he looks about 40 - as in the panels in the original post above - which is his "true" physical age if we follow the continuity, sometimes quite a bit older (from artists who prefer him to look 50-something for whatever reason).<br /><br />The Doctor Who case is interesting. No one ever seems to find the idea creepy of Doctor Who (as long as he's in a young-looking body) having erotically charged friendships with ordinary young women, even though there's a huge difference in power, knowledge, experience, etc. Same with Buffy - what seems to matter most is physical presentation. <br /><br />And this brings me back to thinking that a lot of what we see is a deep and widely-experienced repugnance towards the idea of women of child-bearing age being with men who are old enough to be at high risk of delivering damaged sperm cells. That's not how we think of it, of course, but arguably that's the kind of thing that we're programmed to find yucky. I'm coming to be more attracted to the idea that the rest is mainly rationalisation, much as people try to rationalise their visceral responses to incest. <br /><br />But let's keep the debate going. I certainly can't <i>prove</i> this, and I'm still open to all the perspective and arguments.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-48517892661211599092011-07-18T09:52:16.191+10:002011-07-18T09:52:16.191+10:00Grania,
I am not sure I can shrug off any severe ...Grania,<br /><br />I am not sure I can shrug off any severe power-imbalance easily. I think any healthy relationship must, by definition, have both partners on approximately the same level leverage- and maturity-wise. (And maturity does not necessarily mean same age plus minus two years, of course.)<br /><br />Upon further reflection, it also seems to me as if this is why there would be much less yuck with these two superheroes. They would be equals as far as power and force of personality are concerned.<br /><br />Colin,<br /><br />I never wrote I would personally favour outlawing, for example, prostitution - I think it is unavoidable, but would like to see good protections and safety nets in place so that nobody has to do it, to remove lack of alternatives as a motivation, and to keep exploitation to the minimum that cannot be avoided without having a complete police state.<br /><br />But this was about what we find creepy, not what should be illegal; and I just happen to find it creepy when somebody apparently sells themselves out to a character-wise and bodily repugnant politician or magnate to bask in the reflected glory of influence, publicity and riches. Age-imbalance becomes much less creepy when you have the feeling that these things could not have played a major role.Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-48139582956578049192011-07-18T02:34:37.629+10:002011-07-18T02:34:37.629+10:00A few months ago I found myself dating someone who...A few months ago I found myself dating someone who is a hair under half my Brad Pitt-ish age.<br /> <br />We're both males, we had talked online for six months beforehand without more than a hint of flirtatiousness, because for me he was way below my cutoff age and we also live a thousand miles apart. <br /><br />However he made the effort to travel to meet me in person, and then over the course of 3 more visits, the romance blossomed. I've got no gold for him to dig, except in the most intangible ways and he is completely unfazed by the age difference. Count me surprised.<br /><br />Quite by coincidence I had started reading a new autobiography of the American pianist Earl Wild, who met his partner when they were 57/23 respectively and who stayed together for 38 years.<br /><br />If I had known in my twenties that I needed to wait another twenty years to find myself another compatible person of that age, I don't know whether I would have been happy or suicidal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-4547157669707539042011-07-17T18:31:06.549+10:002011-07-17T18:31:06.549+10:00@ Alex SL
I think describing it as prostitution /...@ Alex SL<br /><br />I think describing it as prostitution / status acquisition is not only a bit harsh but also misses the fact that a lot of (maybe even most) marriages and even non-formal relationships between people of similar ages happen for exactly the same reasons.<br /><br />People shrug off those arrangements more easily than when it is accompanied by a large age difference.Graniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13360036482346862487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-8551941655414125162011-07-17T17:00:10.915+10:002011-07-17T17:00:10.915+10:00"I remember seeing an inherent unfairness in ..."I remember seeing an inherent unfairness in a large age gap: the time the couple has together, given that they spend the rest of their lives together, is obviously (to me at that age, at least) significantly less than it would or could be between couples of similar ages. Indeed, I considered that it would make the most sense for a man to marry a woman who was slightly older than himself, given that women on average tend to live longer."<br /><br />This also. Except that this seems perfectly rational, rather than being a kneejerk yuck factor.Svlad Cjellinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-1518294134421741852011-07-17T15:24:16.626+10:002011-07-17T15:24:16.626+10:00Till, I must admit that - on the facts you/Pinker ...Till, I must admit that - on the facts you/Pinker gives us - I can't see anything wrong at all with the Julie & Mark story. But I suspect maybe I've suppressed my yuck factor about such things long ago, probably because my work requires me to <i>think</i> about them quite a lot. <br /><br />Even the eugenic rationale for the incest taboo is spurious; we don't typically prevent people affected by genetic illnesses or disabilities from having kids. A couple who have already have a kid with cystic fibrosis has a 1:4 chance that any subsequent kid would be similarly affected, but we wouldn't even think about banning them from having sex. <br /><br />On the other hand, the incest ban even applies to same-sex couples, which can't possibly be justified on genetic grounds.ColinGavaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-23224557464607777932011-07-17T15:17:21.809+10:002011-07-17T15:17:21.809+10:00Alex, if both partners are entering a rel'ship...Alex, if both partners are entering a rel'ship without coercion, and both are gaining something they want from it, I'm not sure I'd want to be too prescriptive about the requirements for a 'healthy' relationship.<br /><br />As to the more general question: the power imbalance issue may play a part in some cases, especially where one partner is very young. A teenager going out with a 30- or 40-something may be legal, but it may also raise legitimate questions about possible exploitation.<br /><br />But none of that applies in the Murdoch case. Ms Deng may be half his age, but she is also a very successful 40-something businesswoman. It may be professionally or financially advantageous to her to be involved with Murdoch, but that's hardly the same as saying she is being exploited. (I'm assuming he didn't threaten to sack her if she refused to marry him!)<br /><br />I also agree that there seems to be something going on below the level of rational thought, something that has little or nothing to do with concerns as to equality. Would it be fair to surmise that the prospect of, say, Series 1 Buffy Summers getting together with Angel would elicit, in most people, considerably less of a yuck response in most people than the prospect of her doing so with Giles? And yet, we know from early on that Angel is centuries older than Giles, and many times more powerful. It seems, then, that it's simply the appearance of age that triggers the unease.<br /><br />(Personally, I suspect I just hate the prospect of that rancid old horror Murdoch getting anything good in life! Not very utilitarian of me, but there you go ...)ColinGavaghannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-54047240110771651322011-07-17T12:07:35.336+10:002011-07-17T12:07:35.336+10:00Test your yuk-factor here.
The little story at t...Test your yuk-factor here. <br /><br />The little story at the end of this post was suggested by Stephen Pinker in The Blank Slate, and apparently invokes a kind of 'yuk' response in most people of all cultures. It's not related to May-December relationships, but to sibling incest. The two have a lot in common, in that they are generally considered to be 'unnatural'; however, sibling incest (defined usually in terms of certain physical actions), which arguably is the one with the least degree of 'power' connotations, is a criminal offense in almost (actually possibly not even 'almost') every nation on the planet, while May-December relationships aren't, no matter how much they may be frowned upon.<br /><br />My personal view is libertarian: that sexual issues, as long as they are not injurious to the people involved (speaking from a personal/relationship point of view) and as long as whatever takes place is between consenting people capable of making choices (for whatever reason they may consent, and who are we as outsiders to judge??) are nobody's damn business but that of the people involved, no matter how the rest of the world feels about it. Which makes me wonder how I'd feel about Murdoch-Deng thing if it weren't Murdoch (whom I find repulsive at too many levels to enumerate) but Clint Eastwood or some other public personality I happen to find... oh, 'likeable', I guess, no matter what their age?<br /><br />I've dealt with these issues several times in my novels and screenplays—to the extent that the publisher of my first fantasy novel literally forced me to alter a significant element of the story because they found it to be...well, maybe they just a 'yuk' reaction. Who knows? Such things are usually wrapped up in several layers of rationalizations until at last they at least appear to be based on reason, which they're not. <br /><br />Anyway, here's Pinker's little story. What does <i>your</i> gut tell you? Right or wrong? Yuk or cool? Leave them alone or string them up by their toes and whip them? <br /><br />"Julie and Mark are brother and sister. They are traveling together in France on summer vacation from college. One night they are staying alone in a cabin near the beach. They decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried making love. At the very least, it would be a new experience for each of them. Julie was already taking birth control pills, but Mark uses a condom too, just to be safe. They both enjoy making love, but they decide never to do it again. They keep that night as a special secret, which makes them feel even closer to each other."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-77426883231881499972011-07-17T10:35:36.965+10:002011-07-17T10:35:36.965+10:00What Felix said...
Miranda,
There might be a dif...What Felix said...<br /><br />Miranda,<br /><br />There might be a difference still between "being attracted to older men" and all these cases of flabby and often personally repugnant financiers, powerful politicians and publishers ending up with extremely beautiful women half their age. Greenspan and former German foreign minister Fischer spring to my mind, and that is not even mentioning Hugh Hefner et al. It strains credulity to explain this pattern with average women truly falling in innocent love with average men who just happen to be a few years older...<br /><br />And it goes both ways, of course. In one direction, it is a form of prostitution. In the other, it is the acquisition of a status symbol. But can it be what a healthy relationship should be, i.e. the acquisition of a PARTNER? If (1) there is such a power asymmetry due to the riches and influence on the (usually) male side and (2) one of the partners could well be the other's third child from an earlier relationship?Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-14474270695282811132011-07-17T09:26:08.303+10:002011-07-17T09:26:08.303+10:00Not you specifically, the point that a few people ...Not you specifically, the point that a few people seemed to be suggesting: that maybe this is an evolutionarily programmed thing rather than a socialised rule ultimately based on ideas of unequal power or whatever.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-58064475208015736292011-07-17T02:55:55.303+10:002011-07-17T02:55:55.303+10:00Any reaction (like this one) that hits us before o...Any reaction (like this one) that hits us before our conscious idiocy rationalises it away is obviously evolutionary in its source.<br /><br />Ever since I realised the number of things I rationalised away post hoc I have tried to become acutely aware of what the heck nature has set up in me. There are a couple of things that are deep ingrained through parents/friends/civilisation and those are hard to filter out but they are less quick to come to the fore, they are thought about but in a very perfunctory way before I eventually try to rationalise it.<br /><br />To check this out we have to accept our limits as mammals, but also our massive superiority in cognition and subcontract the tests out to animals.<br /><br />Get apes who are fully sated (sexually and nutritionally) and see if they are upset with another ape being with an appealing female. At this point I wish to apologise to all women and point out that this is our very old brain parts we're testing, like Russell I am very much for equality and all that, but this is a real natural reaction that we feel but, ideally, do not act upon.<br /><br />We may actually have to go further back than apes to lizards as I hae no idea how deep ingrained in the brain this might be. Although lizards rarely, if ever, have empathy or jealousy so maybe we stick with animals. I guess that's what tests are for - we may learn more than expected from this! Can we trace this through the animal kingdom based on alpha male-ness, life expectancy, access to available females etc. etc.?<br /><br />Sorry, just responding at random, no idea if you were actually addressing me or not.March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116034158087704885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-40168189020530124112011-07-16T22:57:06.673+10:002011-07-16T22:57:06.673+10:00The evolutionary explanation sounds interesting. I...The evolutionary explanation sounds interesting. I wonder how we'd test it. <br /><br />It does seem to fit with the pattern that what bothers (some of) us is seeing an obviously young woman, clearly of child-bearing age, with a man who shows obvious signs of age. E.g. a woman who is conspicuously well under 40 and a man who is conspicuously well over 50. But presumably we want better evidence than that.<br /><br />And I repeat that I'm not trying to <i>justify</i> these sorts of responses. I don't really have these responses <i>intellectually</i>, wouldn't support laws against relationships with large age gaps, and wouldn't even support social pressure against such relationships. Perhaps the responses can even be seen as a form of bigortry. I'm just interested in why we (or some of us) respond as we do, and whether anything actually can be offered to rationalise it, as opposed to explaining it psychologically.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-58912454683512320212011-07-16T16:24:05.774+10:002011-07-16T16:24:05.774+10:00Wikipedia suggests the half-age-plus-seven rule, b...Wikipedia suggests the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Half-age-plus-seven-relationship-rule.svg" rel="nofollow">half-age-plus-seven rule</a>, but that doesn't describe how I feel.<br /><br />About the photo of Murdoch and Deng: This thread reminds me, AC Grayling wrote, "If you really want a mind-altering experience, look at a tree." That clears my head, then I see the photo as a meeting of the minds. They look like they get along, like they can talk about whatever happened during their day with each other. Maybe they found an oasis to focus on that, while the rest of us trip over their age and money and power.<br /><br />About power imbalance: I told a friend Kathryn I read an observation that some social liberals judge sex to be moral only between partners of equal age and power, and she quipped, "And when does that happen?" So now I'm definitely not that kind of social liberal anymore. And a friend Ali told me compatibility is more important than equality -- not to promote inequality, but to put equality in perspective. Should I break up with a girlfriend because I make more than twice the money she does? Or should she break up with me because of that? Then nobody gets anything.<br /><br />About the ugly man / beautiful woman thing: Years ago I walked past Jerry and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/MaggieLettvin" rel="nofollow">Maggie Lettvin</a> walking together on their way to a party at my old dorm. Jerry had really put on weight, his hair was a mess, and he was wearing horn-rimmed glasses with clip-on shades flipped up, like he didn't give a Randall's-honey-badger how he looked. Neither of them knew me, but Maggie gave me a second or two of amazing eye contact with a beatific smile. Since then, I see the ugly man / beautiful woman as wonderful as they were together -- I can't imagine anything that could undo those wonderful images in my mind. And if anyone doubts a vibrant woman's physical attraction to such a physically "unattractive" man, the last chapter of <i>Maggie's Back Book</i> covers special topics including how to make love with a fat man with a bad back [spoiler alert: a chair].Dave Rickshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03131126038425198891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-13098937668837832242011-07-16T12:58:04.610+10:002011-07-16T12:58:04.610+10:00I have a leather jacket approximately the same age...I have a leather jacket approximately the same age as my last girlfriend so have no problem with intergenerational relationships in principle.<br /><br />The Tennant thing's a bit worrying though as in real life he is engaged to Georgia Moffatt, who played his daughter onscreen and is the real-life daughter of Peter Davison, who played an earlier incarnation of the Doctor. <br /><br />That makes her his daughter twice over. Only a Time Lord can commit incest twice simultaneously.SpeakerToAnimalsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-63851425355285936832011-07-16T08:56:50.886+10:002011-07-16T08:56:50.886+10:00I think a lot of the revulsion factor is is inform...I think a lot of the revulsion factor is is informed by biology. Pairing were once upon a time essentially about reproduction and therefore anyone displaying signs of being at an age where reproduction was unlikely was seen as not a viable mate. To this extent older men get away with it a bit more than older women.<br /><br />However, now that a great many relationships are not about reproduction we really ought to have gotten over it by now, and some of us have. But old biologically engrained prejudices die hard, I guess.Graniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13360036482346862487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-69740385655645439452011-07-16T08:47:22.048+10:002011-07-16T08:47:22.048+10:00If the person who simply said, "I think you a...If the person who simply said, "I think you are completely nuts," wants a comment published here, they had better say something with a bit more substance. I don't see the necessity to publish simple drive-by insults (even though I sort of have in this case by quoting it here).<br /><br />Otherwise, good conversation.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-74874049686901107102011-07-16T03:06:04.088+10:002011-07-16T03:06:04.088+10:00How about the studies suggesting much higher level...How about the studies suggesting much higher levels of potentially harmful mutations in older men's sperm as a contributor to the innate 'ickiness' factor? Just like the anti-incest 'ice factor' such an innate aversion leads to healthier offspring in the great natural selection contest.Damionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14360566092148805751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-89785489946522523452011-07-16T02:51:49.632+10:002011-07-16T02:51:49.632+10:00Concerning Murdoch and his latest wife, I think we...Concerning Murdoch and his latest wife, I think we ("we") are squicked by it almost entirely due to the relatively recent (but powerfully internalized) definition of marriage being based properly on mutual love, with sexual attraction being part of that love and soul-mateyness + friendship being the other main components.<br /><br />That's vastly different from how marriage was defined for most of human history, and indeed how it still is defined in many cultures.<br /><br />However, we ("we") now have that ideal engrained in us, and these hot young woman/ugly old rich guy relationships violate that ideal. And like good little acculturated boys and girls, that violation makes us squirm. I don't think it's anything more than that.Ossiclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05677105736731719078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-29828386898037148002011-07-16T02:48:48.389+10:002011-07-16T02:48:48.389+10:00I don't have any comment or interest on Rognit...I don't have any comment or interest on Rognito. As for Murdoch and his latest wife, I think we (or "we") are generally squicked by it almost entirely as a result of the relatively recent definition of marriage as being based on mutual love (sexual attraction being part of that love; soul-mateyness & friendship being the other main components). That's vastly different from how marriage was defined for most of human history, and indeed how it still is in many cultures. However, we ("we") now have it engrained in us -- and the fact is, these May/December (hot young woman/ugly old rich guy) relationships violate that ideal. Like good little acculturated boys and girls, that violation makes us squirm.Ossiclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05677105736731719078noreply@blogger.com