tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post1123873511697425981..comments2023-10-26T22:06:11.166+11:00Comments on Metamagician3000: "Society is getting worse, therefore God exists."Russell Blackfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-44861336362624849852011-09-16T19:19:09.363+10:002011-09-16T19:19:09.363+10:00PZ Myers skewers Scott Stephens and his "soci...PZ Myers skewers Scott Stephens and his "society is screwed without God" arguments in <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/09/15/believe-in-mad-rubbish-because-its-good-for-you/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+freethoughtblogs%2Fpharyngula+%28FTB%3A+Pharyngula%29" rel="nofollow">this blog post</a>.Darrick Limhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13791236823584001938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-23862080214062826342011-09-12T09:18:31.664+10:002011-09-12T09:18:31.664+10:00On the Europe and the West thing - the trends we&#...On the Europe and the West thing - the trends we're talking about now affect parts of Europe that are not usually considered parts of the West (Slovakia, etc., etc). Conversely, the West is generally considered to include the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and perhaps (though this might be a bit of a stretch) even Japan. The two concepts overlap, since France, Germany, the UK, Scandinavia, etc., are obviously in Europe as well as being part of the West. But neither subsumes the other.<br /><br />I suppose I could have just said "developed economies" or "industrialised nations" or some such thing.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-37404634651837373632011-09-12T07:19:00.097+10:002011-09-12T07:19:00.097+10:00I think it's a good argument for the non-exist...I think it's a good argument for the non-existence of God:<br />1. If God doesn't exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.<br />2. It's necessary to invent Him.<br />3. Therefore, God doesn't exist.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12460075520187803334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-47780860282852355272011-09-12T07:06:37.363+10:002011-09-12T07:06:37.363+10:00"Consider, for example, the enormous difficul..."Consider, for example, the enormous difficulty as recently as the 1960s - and in some cases more recently still - in getting rid of criminal laws against homosexual conduct."<br /><br />It's worth pointing out, in this vein, that this process wasn't concluded in the US until 2003, and that in many developing countries, harsher punishments for gay people are often proposed as part of a strategy to establish religious values over secular ones.<br /><br />The supposed decline of Western societies is an idea I generally find mind-boggling. The political, legal, and financial rights of women have freed them from being vassals of men. Outright racism has gone from a part of daily life to taboo. Some features of society may have gotten worse, but to say that we are less moral in general? Towards whom?<br /><br />Speaking from an egocentric point of view, if I had been born a generation earlier, my parents would have run afoul of anti-miscegenation laws in much of the US. My mother would have had trouble supporting us in the way she did when I was young and my father out of work for a year.. And I would be at a high risk of persecution and violence for being openly bisexual. Before the internet, it would have been harder to connect with people I could identify with and get support from when I was hormonal and an emotional dunce. And that's only one generation. I can't imagine feeling nostalgia for all that.Sean (quantheory)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00094694851707164734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-1029069846151481452011-09-12T05:12:41.579+10:002011-09-12T05:12:41.579+10:00Of course when an objective, measurable metric* is...Of course when an objective, measurable metric* is used to measure the quality of life, as opposed to the incoherent concept "morally worse", it can be seen that in western society the quality of life has been increasing and is negatively correlated with religiosity.<br /><br />Steven Pinker has discussed# the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present, and argues that, though it may seem illogical and even obscene, given Iraq and Darfur, we are living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence.<br /><br />* The Human Development Index, where life expectancy, education and income are used to measure well-being, especially child welfare.<br /><br /># http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzksteve oberskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-67830528099729476622011-09-12T00:49:40.877+10:002011-09-12T00:49:40.877+10:00I was going to write about how the accusation of &...I was going to write about how the accusation of "consumerism" is tosh, but I think this theme actually ties in with a more general discussion in sociology about the consequences of modernity. <br /><br />There are at least two ways of looking at the thesis of moral worsening. You could look at measures of justice and societal well-being, and it would be difficult to avoid the conclusion that societies are in a better shape than they have ever been. However, when people are throwing this idea around, I think often what they really are thinking of is the loss of what Lyotard called "metanarratives": a loss of commonly shared goals, a loss of noble ethical aspirations for a virtuous life and the replacement of these with anomie, atomism, ennui, decadence, and other fancy words. It is then assumed that this would lead to unfortunate social outcomes. If you wanted to, you could find some social ills that might indicate a corrosion of values, such as the increasing numbers of people suffering from depression and the increased numbers of divorces and children raised in families without two parents. Perhaps low birth rates could also be mentioned.<br /><br />Concerns such as these are constantly raised by people who have a tendency to be pessimistic about modernity. Whenever something that used to be the norm gets changed, it is always a possibility that the result will be a lack of social cohesion and a corrosion of norms and values. Commonly modern maladies get juxtaposed against some fictitious golden age or a utopian religious or ideological vision. Sometimes people who raise such objections are right and sometimes they are not, but the objections are invariably made in any case.<br /><br />If one should take the problem of social cohesion as an argument in favor of religion, I think it should be noted that anomie never happens because of a lack of any particular institution. Having norms and values is a social function that needs to be fulfilled in one way or another, but there is no reason the job should be given to the same institutions that used to take care of it in the past. Also, there is no obvious need for uniformity. Pluralism works just as well, as long as the issue gets sufficient attention. <br /><br />BTW, in the expression "modern Western and European societies", are you saying that Europe is not a part of "the West"? Is this some Aussie thing that I should know about?MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14697172554669263698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-82701448810529738582011-09-11T22:58:34.200+10:002011-09-11T22:58:34.200+10:00It is so obvious that societies today are vastly s...It is so obvious that societies today are vastly superior to previous times and that the quality of life has dwarfed that of the past. The conclusions that your post raises cannot be rationally disputed and those who do prove the point that religion corrupts minds and skews thinking into irrational and counter-moral thinking and actions.NewEnglandBobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07190715223856189053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24761391.post-41829851197229080252011-09-11T21:52:42.047+10:002011-09-11T21:52:42.047+10:00"This is supposedly shown by, for example, co..."This is supposedly shown by, for example, consumerism (whatever, exactly, that really means), greater acceptance of abortion, and the availability and common use of pornography."<br /><br />Consumerism: you mean people are engaging in trade with each other across cultures and nationalities? Good! Common use of pornography: You mean a benign (and often quite nice) human impulse is no longer being repressed and stigmatized, but rather is becoming widely accepted? Good!<br /><br />My moral compass is a little shakier on abortion, but overall I agree with your assertion that we're getting progressively better as a whole, even if progress is slow. Better medicine. Better understanding of the cost of war and the benefits of education. Globalism makes empathy with 'the other' easier...<br /><br />The 'society is getting worse' thought is one that is typically had by formerly dominant groups as they lose power. It's happening right now in the U.S. to the tea partiers: middle and upper class white folk who feel their place on the hierarchy is being challenged, and are suddenly developing a victim complex. It's happening to the religious too. <br /><br />I know you've got a beef with people throwing around the word 'privilege', but--in general--the dominant classes don't have to think about things folks in other classes do, and when they have to start thinking about those things, some of them are going to get highly grumpy.Spencer Troxellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03750605353914336538noreply@blogger.com